Should we give up our reference?

[Magdalena Castaneda]

Hi Everyone,

It's been awhile, have been busy with a new painting. Anyway, the person wants me to give, or sell her the resource photos I took of her. I know that the Forum had this discussion sometime ago but I don't remember what thread or category it was under

I've been looking under the photos sections, but have not located it? My gut feeling is NO WAY, but I could use some support from that discussion.

I am a painter not a photographer, only one thing at a time for me, anyway if you remember where that discussion was under, I want to read it again before I meet with this lady for her next sitting which is on friday.

Many thanks, Magdalena

[Mike McCarty]

Magdalena,

My recollection is that this topic has been discussed several times but not necessarily in its own thread. My guess is that it is embedded in various other topics and might be difficult to search out.

My feeling is that most don't cotton to the idea of either giving or selling their resource photographs. Personally, I don't know what good could ever come of it. First, it begs comparison to your painting and may be a cause for nit picking any perceived differences. Secondly, most people aren't willing to shell out enough money to mitigate the potential grief. And, as you say, you're not in the business of photography.

I think it's a good idea to nip in the bud any sense of entitlement the client may have to your photos with a well worded phrase or two in your contract. If you do that then you always have the option of breaking your own rule for special circumstances.

[Kimberly Dow]

It seems like it would devalue the artwork if you have the same exact image as a photo - if you're the client, that is.

I do give a CD with the photos on it to my models though. They get a kick out of it and I dont see any harm there. It helps to convince the parents also when I use a younger model.

[Magdalena Castaneda]

Mike, you're right, now that you've mentioned it, these discussions are in varied threads. I do feel that if they've commissioned a painting then why would they want a photo?

Kim, I also feel that it devalues the painting. So, I'll have to come up with a diplomatic (not my strong point), way to tell her no. Will keep you posted. And can finally post a new painting on the forum.

All the Best, Magdalena

[Jimmie Arroyo]

I have it in my contract that the model cannot have copies of the reference photos. I have no idea what they plan to do with them, and it has been said, it devalues the art and there's no reason for them to have it. I will let them have a copy of a photo that I don't use just to be a nice guy.

Several people have personal websites. They could decide to post it on their site where anyone can view it, and people will compare it to the artwork. Artists may use "other people's photos" (they're down wit OPP) which diminishes the value of your art, if not making it valueless. I won't post reference photos for similar reasons, plus I have an agreement with the model that I won't do so. It makes them feel better that they won't eventually have their face imposed on a porn site.

I have a paper shredder which is where the photos go after I'm done with them.

Now a commission I feel is different. I have given clients the reference photos after reminding them that I am not God, and there will always be discrepancies. For my personal stuff, the pics are mine, mine, all mine.

[Holly Snyder]

This is an interesting and timely discussion for me, as I am sitting here looking at a bunch of photographs I recently took of a model. All the poses turned out very well, and all could make nice paintings. I had told her I would give her some (especially since she said she only has a few photographs of herself that she likes), but don't want to give her the exact pictures I would do paintings from.

Before, when I've done kids, it was relatively easy to just pick a few where the child was smiling or something, and give that to the parents. In this case, she was an excellent model and held almost the same facial expression the whole time, so I have no different expressions to choose from. She has a beautiful upper lip, however her natural relaxed position is to have her mouth slightly open (it looks funny closed) thus the same expression.

It's interesting reading everyone's ideas about giving out photos. I may have to bite the bullet on this one, give her the photos, and not offer photos to the next model, particularly if they're an adult. At least they don't have a personal website.

Holly

[Magdalena Castaneda]

Jimmie, can you share the wording on that? I think it is ok for clients as well. Holly, never know when these discussions can come in handy. I will be reading the other discussions again once I find them again.

All the Best, Magdalena

[Jimmie Arroyo]

I have some forms at work so here goes,

"I understand the photograph(s) taken or provided, will become the sole property of artist. I may not sell, profit, or use in any form, the reference or finished image for personal purposes."

This also covers pictures that someone may send me(provided). Let's say you mail me a pic of yourself for me to use for my own purpose, not commissioned, you're giving me ownership of the pic. You are not able to use it, post it, or whatever. I give the model an 8x10 print which is just for hanging. They can use it on their website with my permission, but they can only display it, not profit from it.

Hope that helped.

[Michele Rushworth]

When people ask I downplay the value of the photos themselves and explain that they're not any kind of finished product or anything worth keeping. They're "just a reference for me to paint from", I tell them.

I deliberately make the photos fairly unappealing in and of themselves so clients won't want them. Don't get me wrong, I try to take the best photographs I can in terms of lighting, posing, background, expression, etc, to paint from. But when I show them to the client I print them fairly small and gang up many of them on a page. I also crop in very closely on the various face shots, so close that they don't look at all like anything you'd want to put in a frame. I don't want the photographs to seem like finished works, or something a client would want to have copies of. You could even take this a step further and print them so the color is a bit "off", or print them too light, just for when the client sees them.

I also feel that giving the client the actual photo(s) you worked from devalues the painting. It also invites nitpicking. They may adore the painting when they first see it, but if given the chance to compare side by side with the original photo they might suddenly feel that, oh, her cheeks are much more red than in the photo, or not red enough, or the eyes are too light or too dark.

The painting must stand on its own merits, free from any millimeter by millimeter comparison with the photo. After all, I'm not trying to make a copy of the photo, I'm trying to improve upon it.

[Mike McCarty]

Moderators note: I'm going to change the name of this thread to make it easier to identify.