Primary Colors

[Douglas Drenkow]

You know, when you first mentioned that system of tonal values, I thought you were referring to the famous "zone system" created by Ansel Adams, which is the standard technique for black-and-white photography...

http://www.normankoren.com/zonesystem.html#History

However, that was not invented until 1939/1940 -- over 30 years after Denman Ross invented his nine-step value scale!

To my photographer friends, to even suggest that Ansel Adams is not to be given full credit for the idea, well, that wouldn't be "European"; it would be heresy!

[Juan Martinez]

You know, Doug, when I compare the 9-point value scale, and the 10-point one, I find the former more logical: more logical to use, that is, not necessarily to conceive of. I mean, it is certainly logical to think of each value as being a 10% differential from any adjacent one, or to think of each as a certain percentage of grey. (As is the case in the Munsell scale.)

However, in practice, what really is a 20% grey? Perhaps this is only a problem if the use of that scale is not taught properly. Because, really, who cares if something is this percentage grey or that? What a painter does care about is the visual difference between one tone and another. "This one's darker than that one, but lighter than that one over there." Once you are used to one scale or another, you can instantly assign numbers: "Oh, that's a 6" or "That's about 3.5" and so on. If you're looking at coloured objects, or coloured parts of paintings, it is cumbersome to assign a percentage of grey to it.

The 9-point scale works well because you are never given any percentages to deal with and you can begin to get yourself acquainted with it by always thinking of a "half-way" point. The odd number allows for finding visual mid-points, readily. I'm sure you get the picture (I'm probably not doing the best job of explaining, in any event). Conveniently, there are three values in the lights, three in the mid-tones, and three in the darks, with infinite gradations between the extremes. But, nine definitive tones is still a very workable number. Any fewer, and the jumps between adjacent values would be too dramatic to be of practical use. Any more, and it becomes nearly impossible for the untrained eye to distinguish between adjacent values. (By the way, I know I am doing the 10-point scale a disservice here. I suppose I'm talking generally about someone trying to learn a value-scale for the first time.)

The one silly thing about the 9-point scale when it is numbered rather than given names for each value, is that it goes from 1 (lightest) to 9 (darkest). That's okay when simply looking at it, but when describing something as having a "high" value, you are actually talking about a low number. The reverse, of course, with the low values. That is, frankly, illogical. This is all the more confusing when discussing values with someone who uses the 10 point scale. I find it is best to have plenty of wine on hand in those situations so that the confusion can ultimately be attributed to the booze.

Juan

[Douglas Drenkow]

I can relate (and I haven't even had my glass of wine this evening).

That "high" value/low number sort of thing always gets me too -- anything arbitrary gets oppressive after a while (maybe it's a logical left brain sort of thing, against which the artistic right brain revolts).

You did explain the benefit of the 9-point scale well. In fact, that is how I usually mix paints for fleshtones: A set of highlights, a set of midtones, and a set of shadows (for each area of skintones -- the cheeks and nose typically more reddish).

Like you said, it's more practical to judge relative values than, say, 20% grey (I think that may be more useful in photo labs etc.) -- particularly since that same grey (or any color of that value) would appear lighter or darker in various environments of color.

But just as this discussion of primary colors seeks to uncover the inherent nature of colors, grayscales and other logical frameworks can be of help in analyzing, and perhaps then creating, works of art, even if such considerations are dealt with more by intuition than by conscious calculation.

Art flourishes because of the variation in style of the artists; but underlying it all, there are certain fundamentals: For example, certain colors -- and not others -- are indeed primaries.

The technically greatest artists can apply the principles of color and other materials and methods with ease; the greatest artists of all can also use these means to elaborate even more fundamental values, as of humanity and spirituality.

Art, like science, is a search for the Truth (and, thus, some might say a search for the nature of God).

[Khaimraj Seepersad]

That was fascinating folks!

The CYM colour system can work in oils, but you will end up mixing a great deal of yellow ochre hue. You have to get very specific organic pigments and when properly mixed you will also achieve a black or a really rich dark.

Black pigments end up bluish or brownish because of chemical qualities, they are not perfectly neutral or light absorbing. The CYM palette will also end up with very glowing colours. Perhaps a bit unnatural, but an excellent exercise in colour mixing. If the Organics were time tested, I would probably use them all the time. There was for me a period of eye to colour adjustment.

Lastly, CYM + Black in printing, is I believe to speed up the drying of the print. One application of black dries faster than 3 colours constantly being mixed.

In the older Italian printeries, it is ultramarine blue,a warm yellow,cold red and a greyed neutral black.

Khaimraj

[Douglas Drenkow]

Thank you, Khaimraj, for such interesting and specific information on pigments as well as a unique historical perspective.

I recently read in some Gamblin literature that phthalocyanine is used in printing today for cyan, particularly because it is so stable (old printing tends to turn blue, as the other colors fade first).

I did not know about a one-color black drying faster than a mixed black, at least in color printing inks (although it makes sense as you explain it). I have seen printing samples (as along the edges of the proofs of printed materials or, I believe, on the inside flaps of cereal boxes etc.) that show a one-color black to be blacker than a three-color black: As was your main point, it is the selection of pigments that determines the particular properties of their mixtures.

According to the scientific theories of color, a cyan-yellow-magenta color scheme in pigments should be ideal (complementing -- that is, absorbing -- the red, blue, and green primary colors of light); but it typically doesn't seem workable in practice, for mixing clean colors.

[Anwar Shaikh]

Hi all, my name is Anwar, I am new to the Forum.

Yes, I have tried using a cyan/magenta/yellow palette. I actually was amazed at the range. It seemed to me to be a true set of primaries, that is Prussian Blue, Alizarin Crimson, and Cadmium Yellow Medium. Using it, I began to find colors I never did see before and I was able to make the subtlest adjustments. Still, I reject the use of this palette alone since it tended to result in overly bright coloring as I prefer the "Old Masters" (jewel tone) color approach. Also, I prefer a more opaque range of red colors finding the Alizarine, Anachronoid or Quinacridones weak in general opaque handling. Besides, it eats up Cadmium Yellow which is expensive.

If I were to do it again, I would begin on a warm "Griege" mid-tone ground. This may help because the blue is a swamper, whether it be Pthalocyanine or Prussian. I have the feeling that it actually overpowers and accelerates the fading of the other colors. It was very easy to mix a grey which seemed neutral whilst painting, but became too cool later. If these colors were AA in permanence I would use them as my standard set supplementing for the reds a bit and muting the blue a touch with some reddish burnt sienna.

[Josef Sy]

Hi Juan,

Very nice paintings! Really like your figures and especially your self portrait. I can even see the imprimatura in some parts. You look angry though. I prefer your avatar.

I attended a 2 day seminar by John Michael Angel about 10 years ago. And it really change my life. I envy you had the greatest opportunity to study with him. All I have are notes. Doh! But this Forum is just great! This is like my lecture class - I go everyday and absorb the knowledge from all these great artists out there.

[Juan Martinez]

Thank you, Josef.

Regarding my self-portrait, yes I do look a little stern in it, but I am told that that is fairly common in self-portraits done by looking at a mirror. You're staring so intently at the mirror-image that it is hard to have any other kind of look on your face. In my case, I also had a fairly strong window-light in front of me which made me furrow my brows somewhat. The painting itself is a little overdone in the mid-tones so it doesn't give the proper impression of the intensity of the light source. Alas, I'm afraid there is no hint of the imprimitura (a light mid-tone, warm grey) showing through -- it's completely covered up.

All the best.

Juan

[Josef Sy]

I thought the brownish tone on the shadow, just right of the eye was some imprimatura showing through. Regardless, it's beautiful tones everywhere.

I am still working on the color/tone side of painting myself. I am currently doing a self portrait and hopefully it will turn out ok.

Cheers

[Richard Budig]

Someone asked if anyone has ever seen a painting done with aliz crimson, cad yellow med, and prussian (or thalo) blue. Yes, yes, and yes.

Find a copy of a book by Jose Parramon, The Big Book Of Oil Color. In an effort to get his students/disciples to learn color, he asks you to do (as has he) several painting using only these three colors and white.

I've done a couple, myself.

You can make a creditable cad red (light or med or dark) with nothing more than cad yellow med, and aliz crimson. For the light red, you may have to add just a tot of white.

Put out a little of each color and play around. There isn't a color you can't make if you twiddle the knobs a bit.

As for using black for blue, remember that we tend to see a color's opposite when we look at a particular color. I didn't say that well, but, for example, of you've painted a red, or orang-ish passage, and put a gray (black and white) beside it, it will look blue. In fact, ivory black contains much blue. You can make some really green greens using black and yellow.

Just some thoughts.