Color wheel tools - Page 3

Steven Sweeney · 01-12-2003, 01:22 AM

Glad you asked that question, Michele, and that Michael was on board to answer quickly. I did one of those neurotic "Darn, everybody but me knows what a Value 6 is, whether it's toward the light or toward the dark" worries, and kept quiet. Michael's formula described for me at least two colors, depending on which value was meant, and had he not said that "Chroma 8" was "medium", I'd have assumed that it was either extremely intense or quite gray, so I'd have been guessing four different answers to the formula.

It's possible, too, that some readers may not understand the reference to the Munsell color wheel or "hue circuit" used in the Analogous Color Wheel being discussed, with its five primary colors rather than the three most of us learned in our earliest art studies. I'm only beginning to explore this myself, and not without difficulty (having to unlearn a lot about the triadic scheme), so I'll leave it to others to explain its use and value in practice.

Michael Georges · 01-12-2003, 11:37 AM

Steven:

Good call. If I get the time today, I will do a post on the Munsell System and try to nail it down for those that may not be familiar with it.

Michele Rushworth · 01-12-2003, 12:23 PM

I guess I just don't get the value (pun intended) of using a printed color wheel at all as a tool in the studio.

I know all about hue, saturation, value, analogous color schemes, split complementaries and that sort of thing. But when I want a certain color, I just mix it. If I see a color (let's say the dull grey sky outside my Seattle window right now) I know that I'll need a lot of white, a bit of Ultramarine blue, and oh, maybe some Venetian Red and Yellow Ochre to desaturate the blue.

I'm very interested in seeing Michael's explanation of where the printed color wheel would come in.

Michael Georges · 01-12-2003, 01:25 PM

Quote:

I'm very interested in seeing Michael's explanation of where the printed color wheel would come in.

Michele:

I believe that for beginning artists, or artists who don't feel they have an understanding of color or value, then the Munsell system is a great place to get that knowledge.

If they were to study the Munsell system, then create for themselves, a Munsell color wheel, a value chart from black to white, and then if they were to take the extra steps of taking each hue, and creating charts that express that hue in its value scale, and express each value of that hue in three chromatic intensities from high to low, then by the time they were finished, they would have a very good understanding of hue, value, and chroma and would be able to apply it to their painting and reap a lot of benefit.

These are tools to learn basics and many people are still lacking basics.

My color wheel is pinned to the south wall of my studio. It belongs in my studio because I created it myself as a tool to understand color.

I don't recommend a color wheel that you did not create yourself because color wheels are typically created by companies who want to sell you paint and not teach you about color.

Jean Kelly · 01-12-2003, 11:04 PM

Has anyone had experience with this color mixing book, Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green, by Michael Wilcox? I picked it up and have been having much success so far using his color theory. He explains that there are no pure pigments that capture the true color created by light and the light rays that are reflected. His mixing is based on only six colors with six more added simply because this is all you need to mix any color found in nature. I hope I'm explaining this correctly. There is no pure red, only orange-red and violet-red, no pure blue, no pure yellow etc. Anyway, I'm having a good time with the book and anyone interested in his understanding of color should visit www.schoolofcolor.com .

Jean

Michael Georges · 01-13-2003, 12:33 AM

Jean:

To me, there are two schools of painting and color - the complementary analogous (CA) way, and the chromatic value (CV) way.

The CA system deals ok with hue and less well with chroma and not at all with value. The hues are based on the three primary system and chroma is dealt with by neutralizing with opposites. the problem with this is that invariably, you contaminate your hue.

The CV system starts with more accurate hues, and addresses them within a value scale. To ensure that hues are not contaminated, you neutralize with an equal value gray.

The Wilcox system seems to be a differing way of looking at the CA system, but still does nothing to address value and his chroma system depends on mixing specific brands (namely his) of paint to achieve clean neutralizations. What about hue variations within brands of Hansa Yellow? What if they stop making Hansa Yellow? This guy trying to sell you something as part of his system - what happens when he goes out of business? Further, what quality level are his paints? It seems that he has taken the tertiaries out of the Munsell color scale and dumped the primaries.

I am not saying that his system cannot work, just that I would be cautious about systems that are dependent on specific products, colors, etc. And be wary if someone is trying to "sell you a system" with "products" and especially paints.

Color theory and use should be free. Yes, you do need paint, but you should choose the type and brand yourself and know the quality of the product from its reputation on the market - again, my opinion.

I hope that helps!

Steven Sweeney · 01-13-2003, 05:08 AM

I picked up the Wilcox book some time ago -- the sticker indicates I didn't pay full price for it. I must have thought it interesting at the time, but I can't discern the country of purchase. I actually found it quite fascinating, but I never settled it down enough to use it in practice.

I suppose that was because even the title was counter-intuitive. Whatever the submolecular physics suggest, when you mix a blue and a yellow on your palette, you DO in fact get green, and there's no practical use in being told that you're being tricked by optics and that the green you're seeing isn't green. Wilcox reminds us that yellow is optically emitted from elements that reject, not elements that absorb, yellow. Okay, but ... But mix a red and yellow and you DO get orange. [Michael just described in his formula something he called yellow-red, and then said it was cad orange, and I wondered why he hadn't said orange in the first place -- then he posted his Munsell color wheel and I saw that the "Orange" label isn't on it. It does get complicated.] Maybe you don't get the green or orange you want straightaway, depending on which blue and yellow, which red and yellow, you started with. But I can discern little practical use when painting in saying that what I'm seeing isn't what I'm seeing. "It's a worry."

Finally, I felt like I was trying to apply Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" to a drive in Taipei traffic. It may work in the lab, but try to explain it in Chinese to Taipei police at the scene of the accident. Wilcox's explication began to feel like I had asked a physicist to help me with my golf swing. It could be done, I suppose -- but surely there's gotta be something else. (Sure, I want Tiger's winnings, if not his golf swing. Okay, the swing, too, but not without the dough.)

I'm not at all familiar with the Wilcox paints. In fact, I've been in a lot of venues throughout the world, over a long time, and I've never even seen those paints offered, so maybe they didn't take off, or maybe they're only available from the website. But it doesn't necessarily bother me that an advocate of a system is also selling a product that meets the needs of that system.

I know that I'm ultimately responsible for doing the homework. I just found Wilcox's class to be one I tended to skip more than others.

Jean Kelly · 01-13-2003, 02:23 PM

Steven, you can always make me laugh till I cry. I can visualize the Taipai traffic accident, and resulting chaos. But the title appealed to my rebel nature.

Michael, I didn't buy the paint or any other products, just the book. I bought it because it did make sense, when I went to mix a color I always did it intuitively, never bought a color wheel, no special palette, and did not own one art technique book. This Forum has been the single greatest motivator for buying products than any marketing scam on the web. Here I was introduced to the subtle variations and breathtaking beauty of color in art. So I bought paint, brushes, canvas and two books. I'm learning.

I have good paint, and have been playing with the mixtures. So far so good. (I also like physics.) This makes sense to me. I always thought red and green made mud. Not exactly true, it depends on the qualities of the initial colors. Mud can have beauty and subtlety.

Chris Saper's book on skin tones opened my eyes to all the color found in flesh. This book takes theory down to small details found in any color. Hubby just came home and wants the computer, so I'll be back later.

Jean

Michele Rushworth · 01-13-2003, 03:36 PM

What is "mud"? I think it's simply the wrong color in the wrong place. Otherwise it is "a beautiful neutral".

Elizabeth Schott · 01-13-2003, 11:14 PM

Quote:

The CV system starts with more accurate hues, and addresses them within a value scale. To ensure that hues are not contaminated, you neutralize with an equal value gray.

Michael, if I understand this correctly/ this would be the best system to apply to pastels since your colors are in a sense "pre mixed" in different sticks. This was always the question I had regarding the use of cool shadows. For example, pertaining to pastels, if you find your local skin color, then you want your shadows cool, do you cross hatch with a blue color or do you pick a darker hue (stick) of your local color that is already mixed?

I am not sure if you work in pastels, but hopefully that question made some sense and another person might be able to help me there.