Glazing, try and try again

[Joan Breckwoldt]

After spending some time rereading posts about underpainting, I came across the post where Karin Wells talks about her copy of an Ingres where the underpainting tones are more midvalue than I made mine. I decided the nostrils in the above painting were too dark in value so I've lightened them. I'm leaving her eyes dark because her eyes are like dark pools of liquid and they'll be dark anyway. I think it's made a big difference just to lighten her nostrils, they were bugging me!

Any comments???

Joan

[Allan Rahbek]

Hi Joan,

Not many artists use glazing in the skin colors. They are mostly build up in opaque colors.

Try to take the painting as close as you can by using opaque paint. You will get help when it is obvious where you want to go. It is not easy to say much at this state.

Hope this was usefully.

Allan

[Scott Bartner]

Dear Joan:

What I see in your reference photo is an extreme contrast between light and dark. You've set yourself up with a difficult task because you can hardly make out what's going on in the shadows, and the light is blinding out the high lights.

What I see in your under painting is flatness. This is further accentuated by sharp edges along the contour of the face. One of the reasons I use this technique is to create convincing shadows and I don't see that happening here.

If it were me, I would bring the whole thing down in value. Then I would work the shadow areas fairly darkly. I would then high the face up again trying not to lose its form.

Your main focus should be creating form, addressing the details later. Hope this has been of some help.

[Scott Bartner]

Allen is correct. As far as I know Karin and I are the only artists that use this technique on the forum. What makes it difficult, as compared with other techniques, is the fact that you can not explain in a few simple sentences what should be done next. It's often an intuitive thing, something that comes from many years of struggle.

Yet for me it gives a pleasing result and is adaptable to other techniques. But it's certainly not for everyone, especially those starting out who should first learn a more direct method.

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Scott and Allen,

Thank you both for taking the time to reply. I do understand that this painting is rather flat, but that's because I'm planning on deeping or enhancing my middle tones with rich colors for shadows. My first attempt (that I mentioned above) before Christmas was not so flat, but I achieved that by using darker darks for the shadows. My problem was then that when I glazed, it got TOO dark. I am trying to build up that darkness with glazes, as I understood this was the method from reading previous posts about underpainting on this forum.

You can see my previous attempt on an earlier post:

http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...+underpainting

So, I have arrived at the solution to paint my underpainting using light and middle tones becuase the darker tones get too dark. You can understand my confusion, am I missing something?

Joan

[Scott Bartner]

Dear Joan:

I guess the question is, how close do you want to follow your reference photo? If you decide to lighten up the whole head, then there still should be a correct relative tonal relationship at this stage.

The tonal integrity of the underpainting should be your first priority before you even think about glazing. Glazing should be seen as a way of adding color, as opposed to a solution for achieving plasticity.

My advice to you is to spend as much time as possible getting the value relationships correct on the underpainting. When you finally have the feeling you can almost put your hands around the form, then you can begin to add color.

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Dear Scott,

I agree with you that I cannot go by exactly what the photo tells me becuase half her face is too dark. So I am trying to keep the entire face in the 'light' values, with the shadows being the darkest 'light' value. I'm afriad to go any darker for fear of it looking too dark once I add glazes, which was the problem with my underpainting at Chrimstmas. Are you saying my darks on the face should be darker?

I don not plan on doing any modeling with glazes, just darking my shadows.

I'm not sure what you mean by '"achieveing plasticity"? Does it seem I am trying to achieve plasticity? If she looks plastic to you, I certainly would like to know.


[QUOTE=Scott Bartner]Glazing should be seen as a way of adding color, as opposed to a solution for achieving plasticity. [/QUOTEPerhaps with this reference photo a successful underpainting can't be done without the face appearing too flat. I don't have enough experience to 'make up' what is hidden by the shadows. It's a shame since this is such a cute girl and pose.

Thank you,

Joan

[Scott Bartner]

Is it possible to lighten up your reference photo to see what