Painting over old paintings

[Brenda Ellis]

This may be a very silly question, and I searched the forum for this topic and couldn't find it, surprisingly.

In regards to painting over an old painting on canvas: What is the proper way to proceed? Can I just gesso over the old paint or do I have to use a certain kind of sealer first?

My paintings so far don't have much texture so I wouldn't have to worry about ridges, etc. Just want to know what's acceptable.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about for a commission, just for work for myself.

[Lacey Lewis]

As far as I know, it's OK so long as you use an oil primer to cover the old painting (as opposed to acrylic based).

I DO know that you should NOT paint on the back of a used canvas as the painting needs to breathe.

[Alexandra Tyng]

Brenda,

I agree with Lacey that it should be okay. I've done it several times so it had better be okay! Seriously, you should sand the surface of the old painting first, then you can simply paint right over it. Or if the old painting is distracting, give it a coat of neutral paint, maybe spread it evenly with a paper towel, let it dry, and paint. That will be your "primer." But do NOT use gesso! It will peel off eventually.

[Brenda Ellis]

Lacey and Alexandra-
Thank you! That is good to know.

[Richard Budig]

Brenda:

Hmmmm . . . I raised this issue several months ago, and got quite a few replies, but I could not turn up the thread when I did a search.

Nonetheless, my question was much like yours. Why can't we paint over old paint? My thinking was that when we do a painting that takes quite a long time (whether that is days, weeks, or months) it is inevitable that, at some point, we begin putting new paint on top of yesterday's, or last week's paint.

Furthermore, for those who use the underpainting method, at some point, they have to stop "underpainting," and begin painting in color, which is the same as painting on top of paint.

Like you, I raised the question because I sometimes end up with a few canvases, or panels, that could be used to make a study, or to do something for myself.

Some cautioned against painting on old paint, and others didn't see the harm. As I recall, one of the more valid cautions concerned painting on top of paint that was YEARS old. It had to do with how much the underlayers had dried as opposed to the new, wet layers.

I wouldn't try to seal the old paint, and I'd probably try to be sure the new paint surface had a little oil mixed into the paint to preserve the fat over lean rule, and let the older underlayers of paint to continue drying.

So long as these new paintings are for you, you probably won't do any harm.

One other note. I've been in museums in which you could see the outline (paint ridges) of an older painting beneath the new paint, so the old guys did it, too.

[Michele Rushworth]

Three cautions: always follow the fat over lean rule, so if the old painting has upper layers that are fat, don't start your new painting on top of it with lean layers.

Also, paint becomes more transparent over time. You wouldn't want some object from your old painting to come peeking through the new one at some point down the road.

And of course, a painting done "just for yourself" may turn out to be a masterpiece and you might just wish you had done it on a fresh canvas to begin with.

[Chris Saper]

Why would you do this?

New canvas is not costly. There is much to be said about perfect practice, and I can tell you that some of the very best drawings I've ever done were on NEWSPRINT. Ugh. Completely destroyed by the horrible ground.

IMHO, throw out the bad canvases and start fresh on new ground - and more importantly, the surfaces you will really be working on for your serious/commission work. Imperfect practice is a waste of your precious time.

[Michele Rushworth]

There is much to be said about perfect practice.

Thanks for that valuable reminder. I'm doing a "study" painting for a commission right now and it's good for me to do as good a job on it as I can, even though it might end up in my closet for years to come. If I do it well enough, it might just find a good home somewhere.

[Brenda Ellis]

Chris,
You've given me something to think about.
I just used five canvases trying to get this last portrait right. I felt it was a shame to throw them away. But you are right, canvas is fairly inexpensive. I do understand and appreciate the importance of perfect practice. However, the reason I asked this question was to find out if a painting will last if it's been done on a canvas which is previously painted on. If there were no serious problems with doing it, why not do it?

Michele, it would indeed be a shame to have a really good painting on a crummy canvas! However, if a re-painted canvas is not necessarily crummy, then wouldn't it be okay to have a masterpiece on a repainted canvas? I will bear in mind the fat over lean rule.
I appreciate Michele and Chris, your suggestions and experience. Thank you very much!

Richard, nothing I have is years old...yet. Thanks for sharing what you've heard about this matter.

I have heard here two reasons that it could be bad to repaint a canvas. a) paint becomes transparent over time, b) the hastles of painting fat from the start and not being able to do an underpainting decently.
Those are two very good cautions and I will keep them in mind.

I come from the "throw away" generation, but I attempt to be more conscientious. Sometimes it's a good idea, sometimes not.

Alexandra, you said that gesso could peal off if put over oil paint. Is this true even of oil-based gesso? I can use your method and just mix up some neutral oil paint and spread it on the canvas.

[Lacey Lewis]

I'll just toss in what I've been doing. I recently took the canvas of paintings I do not like off of the stretchers, rolled them all up and then re-used the stretcher bars. I know this seems obvious, so sorry if I shouldn't even have mentioned it. But I have been doing this to try and save money, materials, and very limited space. (VERY limited space )