Lamp black not drying
 

I finished a painting about a month ago and used lamp black for the background. There are still several areas on it that are not completely dry to the touch. I even mixed liquin in it. Has anyone else had similar problems? Any thoughts on it? I know different colors have different drying times, but still- a month or longer?

Susan

Interesting... it doesn't take that long to get a black pigment dry.

Try to remove that! If you find some uneven areas after the removal, try sanding the canvas, it usually helps, then retouch it.

Good luck.

Interesting indeed, Susan.

What "make" is the paint ? What does the label state as to pigment contents and vehicle ?

If the paint is truly "lamp black" (i.e., a mixture of soot gleaned from the burning of lamp oil, whether a non-drying animal or vegetable oil such as olive oil or tallow, or a petroleum fuel such as kerosene) it's the nature of carbon blacks to absorb one helluva lot of oil. If the vehicle is safflower oil (nearly universal in "student grade" colors) the combination could result in a mixture that truly wouldn't dry until the cows come home.

Here's a newsflash: Liquin is a painting medium, not a siccative (drying agent). It is inadvisable to use mediums strictly as driers. Siccatives such as cobalt or manganese linoleates, or lead naphthenate may hasten the drying of paint films, but must be used sparingly and knowledgeably to avoid paint failures. Incidentally, Liquin is compounded from alkyds (synthetic resins) and petroleum distillates and its use may result in delamination if you paint in a layered technique. (e.g., underpainting, over-painting, glazing)

Mars black or ivory black are preferable choices for most palettes. Synthetic iron compounds are the pigments used for those colors nowadays (no elephants or Martians have been burned). Their chief differences being that "ivory black" should be transparent, with a decidedly cool caste, while mars black is opaque, and may run a gamut of warm to cool undertones, depending on the source. As blacks go, both are relatively much leaner than paints made with true carbon black pigments, as the oil absorptive indices of iron-based pigments is much lower than that of pigments which are essentially, different kinds of soot.

As for sound craft in "building" a painting, it is inadvisable to paint lighter values over very dark values, (especially black from the tube) and for consistent, good results, painters should have at least a nodding acquaintance with the principle of painting "fat over lean", to apply to the process of painting a picture.

Neutral mixes of dark colors are more often than not, a better choice than using blacks from the tube. Burnt umber+prussian blue yields a "black" very nearly dark enough to be indistinguishable from black straight from the tube. To boot, this mixture is lean enough to use in underpainting, and dries very rapidly !

Thanks Richard. I still have a lot to learn. The paint is Georgian brand and states carbon black and vegetable black. I'm working on collecting better paint colors from professional brands, but I still have some student grades to weed out.

I have always heard that liquin is good for glazing- but is it not? And what would you recommend I use instead?

?? I've never heard of Georgian, but that's not too surprising.

I preach to anyone who cares to listen to avoid paints that use anything other than linseed oil as the vehicle. It's easily proven that linseed oil produces the strongest films, and of course, it's "time tested" . . . for over 500 years now. The best value for the money is to buy the very best paint. Unfortunately, some of the "big names" dominating the popular market in craft shops and discount art stores do not supply the highest quality oil paint. "Boutique" makers like Robert Doak, Cennini, Vasari, Williamsburg, Michael Harding and Old Holland, to name just a few, represent "colourmen" who truly know their craft, and are committed to high quality above corporate profit.

As it is an alkyd material, Liquin is subject to the advantages and limitations of that synthetic resin. Until well into the 20th century, all paints, whether used on automobiles, houses, ships, equipment, or any other "utility" purposes, had more in common with the paints and mediums traditionally used at the easel than is the case today. Paints, varnishes and solvents were universally based on natural, "vegetable" resins, solvents and oils. These coatings have a finite life-span exposed to full-weather and extreme conditions, so by the mid 1930's, a new generation of more durable synthetic materials were becoming available through advances in chemistry, alkyd paints among them. The resin synthesized by combining an alcohol with an acid (originally al-cid) required "hotter", more chemically active solvents derived from petroleum distillates.

The nature of alkyd coatings is to produce tough, insoluble films which require sanding between coats if multiple layers are applied, because once the surface of the paint is touch-dry, it is impervious to solvent transfer and chemical bonding between fresh coats of paint. Sanding the surface provides a mechanical "key" for a subsequent application to cling to. Otherwise, coatings can peel away from underlayers. No problem on a house or a boat, sanding the dry surface of a painting may or may not be feasible when a "work of art" is in progress.

So long as one sands between applications when Liquin or other alkyd materials have been added to the paint, all is well. Alkyds are also no problem, so long as the painting is completed in one sitting, entirely wet-in-wet.

Since the "pharmacopaeia" of oil painting materials with its wide variety of oils, resins and solvents was perfected long before the advent of petrochemicals and synthetic resins, it seems unnecessary (and counter-intuitive) to look outside the range of natural resins and oils for painting mediums. A number of superior "glazing" mediums can be easily and inexpensively made up in one's own studio with a minimal supply of traditional materials. Enter the controversy between those who (quite rightly) advocate using nothing more than high quality raw linseed oil, and those who find advantage in using mediums compounded with natural resin varnishes.

I was sure that I would read your comments here Richard.

It is always good to read your lines.

Thank you for that, my friend!

I realize this thread has been inactive for awhile, but I just want to say that I have used Liquin for the last 30 years, and I have never experienced the problems mentioned in this thread. I have never sanded between painting sessions. I read so many things like this about Liquin, but I know quite a few artists like me who have used Liquin for years without ill effects.

Richard, I do hope you never experience a delamination failure in your paintings, 30 years past, or 30 years into the future. Good on ya!

Here's the deal. There is no escaping the physical nature of certain materials. When dry, the surface of alkyd resin paint films is impervious to the chemical action and solvent transfer which allows traditional vehicles to bond. If an alkyd film is not abraded to provide a mechanical key for subsequent applications, it is not a question of whether delamination will occur, but how and when.

Having used alkyd paints for over 40 years in the production of commercial displays, I can tell you that this is not only a feature which is addressed by the manufacturers of commercial coatings, but is most definitely a factor in over-layering applications of alkyd paint.

To reiterate the history of alkyds, originally "al-cid", alkyd resin is a synthetic resin produced from the combination of alcohol and an acid. It was developed in the early 1930s out of the necessity of producing paint coatings which would be more durable in automotive applications than the traditional natural vehicle paints then in use. It was especially effective as a coating for automotive chassis.

This durability extended to the formulation of a wide range of "oil base" utility coatings, and its superiority for weathering and wearability has certainly been proven through the last 70+ years. It remains to be seen whether it will perform better through centuries than the materials and methods developed for oil paining over 500 years ago, but it's likely.

Avoiding delamination depends upon two factors. One is the obvious difference in application. Fine art paintings are never (one hopes!) subjected to the weathering and wear which utility coatings are, so not sanding between coats will cause a ready, obvious failure on, say a farm tractor, which is subjected to an environment an easel painting never will be.

Second, all is well so long as the work is produced entirely wet-in-wet, or overpainted during the brief "touch-dry" interval in which the "skin" of wet paint can yet be permeated by the vehicle in the overpainting, thus resulting in the homogenous melding of layers, rather than two "strata" separated by the formation of a cured alkyd resin layer.

Realizing contributions to fora such as this ever amount to nothing more than choosing to believe who is lying to you at the moment, I can only say that my observations are the result of 40 years of painting with a wide variety of materials, the examination of a fairly broad report of use by other professionals, and my own inquiry (however unscientifically proven) into the physical and chemical makeup of the materials which have come my way. I think artists of worth should know fully the properties of the paints they use, and should not be deceived by the claims of manufacturers and suppliers, who more often than not (particularly the past 30+ years) are far more concerned with their "bottom line" than in providing artists with proven, quality materials.

I had the unfortunate and horrifying experience of having a painting in which I had used an alkyd medium delaminate. Since then I have stuck with linseed oil.

Maybe that's where I went RIGHT with this goofy stuff . . . painting over still slightly tacky work from the day before. I paint from around 9 until around 2 or 3 almost ever day. My work is touch-dry when I start out each day, but I can "feel" that it wouldn't take much disturb what's underneath . . . a little turp or thinner on a bristle brush, probably. But, too my mind, I paint into alkyd-dried paint that is barely more than 12 to 18 hours old. Perhaps this is the reason I have never had a delamination problem.

Linseed oil thin layer not drying....
 

Dear experienced friends,
For the sack of trying something new, I applied a thin layer of Linseed oil mixed with Turpentine on the hard surface canvas panel board. This I tried for the first time. Somehow the layer remains wet and can not proceed to add more details to my work. Any idea how long it would take to dry? Or this is not the way to apply a layer in the first place?
I don't mind wiping out completely and tray all over again...though I hate to loose wonderful expression I got on this portrait. :(
I would appreciate your response.

How far along are you with this painting? just started . . . half way . . . almost finished? Where is the black passage? Somewhere it can be wiped down and allowed to dry for awhile. Did you use straight black?

My experience is that there are few places, except the pupils of the eye that are totally black. Of course, I tend to use Liquin, which will dry up the ocean (joke) I think. But, if you use oil as your medium, you could do several things, such as manufacture a black from something like burnt umber and a deep blue. Burnt umber dries quickly. For a warm black you could use burnt sienna and black . . . the burnt sienna dried rather quickly.

It it were me, and the painting was not finished, I would wipe it down and repaint that passage. You say you don't want to ruin the expression on the face . . . did you use that much black in the face?

Again, from my experience, black of any kind, if I'm going to use it at all, is best used in small amounts to tone down another color, in which case, the other colors it is mixed with will dry sooner, pulling the black along with it to a dry condition.

Linseed oil thin layer not drying....
 

Sorry, I don't have any of those visual computer things.

If the black passage is not in some thing critical like the face, why don't you just wipe down with a soft cloth and mineral spirits, let it dry, and repaint it? I'm not one of those who says that black does not belong on the palette, but I do believe that it can be used very sparingly for, as mentioned before, dropping the chroma or value a little. Otherwise, there are lots of ways to manufacture more colorful darks that will read as black to the average eye. Again -- sorry to repeat myself -- one of the few places for the use of solid black is in the pupil of most eyes.

Linseed oil thin layer not drying....
 

It is difficult to offer good critical review of work via computer. Each computer monitor "sees" things differently. If I commented on your flesh tones, I may be quite wrong because of the way my monitor displays your work. In general, your work looks as though you are headed in the right direction.

How did your guru teach you to soften color? Did he teach your about neutral grays? A lot of artists use neutral grays as a way to tone down brilliant colors. You can also tone down brilliant colors using the complement . . . blue to soften orange, for example. However, this method takes a very long time to learn, and usually causes one to waste a lot of paint looking for the right combination. Neutral gray can be made in several values by using ivory black and white. It is necessary to add a bit of raw umber or burnt umber to the black to kill it tendency to show blue. Once you get used to your grays, you will use them in much of your work.

But, as for black, again, my advice is not use so much that it takes so long to dry. Actually, it will eventually dry, but sometimes, it can take quite a long time . . . many days up to a couple of week.

And, yes, you should draw all the time.

Linseed oil thin layer not drying....