First lay in of color
 

I tried to cover the whole canvas but completely pooped out before tackling the reflection in the water, so it is still rough. I could use sets of eyes and expert suggestions as to color/temperature/value, etc. What do you see??

As mentioned under composition, I do not like this particularly but had already begun to paint. I ordered another canvas and while it is on backorder I decided to move ahead with this one. Good practice and learning tool, for sure.

Thank you for looking, and for your help, in advance!

It's so cool to see it here. Things really pop out. Immediately I can see that the value of the girl's back, lower, is too light and the boy on the left's t-shir is bad at the bottom. . I need help with suggestions of the boy's shirt. I changed it to red hoping for the "pop" effect. His shirt in the photo is the same color as the water.

I am not sure how deep to go in value with the darkest shadow in the water, just off their bodies. In the photo it looks so black and I don't want any dead spots.

If anyone has any suggestions about the reflection, jump right in. I know it will be important to get the right effect. There is no detail in the water, waves, etc. yet. I figure that would come nect. The paint is on very thin. It looks like the horizon dips a bit on the right. I will have to check that.

At this point all I have for good examples are Sorolla prints and Monet books. I dont' watn to go too impressionistic, but it is fun to slap on that paint!

Patty, it would help me if you posted the photo in this thread too. It's easier when we can look at both at the same time.

Here is the reference photo. It is bad color reproduction. I think the hue in the scan is redder than the actual photo.

Boy are things screaming at me today. The value of the boys shirt on the left is much too dark. And the seascape, well, it just isn't there, yikes. My thought was to lay in deeper colors and bring up the waves, reflections in subsequent layers in lighter value. Now I am second guessing this decision, remembering what Marvin teaches, to keep the drawing in the correct value at all times.

The girl is wide at the waist and hip. . . I could go on but I would love your expert eyes...

Hi Patty, the first thing I have to say is don't freak out! :) It's only the beginning and it's better to see the mistakes now than later. One thing that helps me is to do a color study, just a small one. That way you can play with color and value without using lots of time and paint. You said you have a new canvas ordered. Why don't you divide this one up and use it for color studies? Maybe even do a black and white value study. I did one at a plein aire workshop last summer and it helped a lot when I got to the painting.

I agree with Marvin about keeping the values correct all through the painting, it can be difficult to lighten something later on. Having a black and white copy of both your source photo and your painting will help keep the values where they belong. I just convert both in paint shop and compare them side by side on the screen and mistakes pop right out.

Another thing I do is keep the paint smooth at the beginning, it's easier to fix drawing mistakes when you don't have to fight with ridges. I try to check my painting for ridges at the end of each painting session. If I miss some I scrape them off the next time I paint.

Doing a careful drawing helps too. And when I transfer I use acetate, and I save the acetate to keep track of the drawing; sometimes it gets away from me! So if I'm having problems I lay the acetate over the painting to check my drawing. I think you might find that helpful in keeping the reflections (and hip sizes, etc.) where they belong.

A T square would be handy to keep your horizon line straight.

The blue around the reflection...... I think it makes the water look deeper than it is, in the photo you can see the warm of the sand through the water. I would connect the reflections of the three kids on the left, they run together a little higher than you have it. I would squint to get the foam the right value. Compare your painting with the photo while squinting.

I hope this helps.

I straightened the horizon line.

Hi Patty,
I still think that you could crop the motif a bit closer so that the persons become more like individuals in stead of just a group on the beach.

I think that it would be a waiste of time going on with a composition that is off.

Why not wash it all off with white spirit and start over on your canvas in stead of waiting for another to come?

+ 2 paintings by P.S. Kr

Hi Patty,

Your best option, I think, is to wipe this painting out and start again on this canvas. You could re-grid the reference (in a different color), too, so that the grid is parallel to the horizon line. and the composition is shifted to the left.

The color looks pretty accurate to me. Personally I would try not to change too many factors, since this can make you crazy. So leaving the color as is can simplify things. If you squint, most of the water is actually closer to sand color (yellow ochre, raw umber light). On the right, in the shallow water, a reflection is just beginning, where the sand color turns slightly bluer, or pale greenish-blue. The underside of the wave on the left is also sand colored. Nothing in your imagination is as valuable as the colors in the reference. It really isn't a bad reference except for the lack of detail in the child's face.

To answer your question about how to treat the very dark shadow behind the children: On the left in the sand is the color of the sand in shadow. The color is the accurate sand-in-shadow color that extends behind the kids. The color of their reflections will be the color of their clothing or skin tinged with the color of this shadow.

Try not to get anxious.

Debra, Allan, Alexandra
 

I have printed up all of your comments and will have them with me when I clean off the canvas and start again! Now I am excited all over again. I guess I did not realize I could clean off the canvas and start fresh. Moving on with this one would have begun to frustrate me, now that I know working over darker colors with a higher value would have been difficult.

All of your comments help. Debra, is acetate the same as velum? I have the drawing on velum fortoace over the drawing. I am going out tonight to buy some white spirits to start again. I did not know I could do that. I'm excited. I did not want to wait until March.

I NEVER would have seen the difference between the cast shadow and the reflection, this really helps me understand what I am seeing and makes it clearer to understand the colors you see and suggest I use - they are all here on my palette.


Allan the paintings by Kreyer are awesome! Tonight is our date at tthe bookstore, I am headed to the art section (as usual) to find some good paintings to study. Any more artists to suggest?

You guys are great and invaluable.

Thanks
Patty

Patty, acetate is a transparent film; it's available in art supply stores and comes in differing weights or thicknesses just like paper. It's available by the roll or in sheets. You use it just like you would vellum or tracing paper, and since it's clear you can put it right over the top of your painting to check your drawing. You can even tape it to your painting and paint right on it if you're thinking about making a change and want to do some experimenting first.

One of the nice things about it is that it's reusable. When I know I won't need the tracing anymore I clean it off with acetone (otherwise known as nail polish remover) and use it again. Since it's thicker than tracing paper I always stack books or magazines under my canvas when I transfer to keep the canvas from sagging down and I also make sure I don't press hard enough to make indents on the canvas. I use ultra fine point sharpies to transfer, I usually use red to trace my drawing, and then go over it with black when I transfer to the canvas, that way I don't (usually) miss anything.

Patty, I am glad that you're starting over with fresh eyes and a ream of advice. :sunnysmil

I would only add that I think you might consider keeping the t-shirt blue, rather than change it to red.

And hang in there - this one's going to be great!

I am anxious!
 

I received the new canvas last week and began again this weekend. Just finished putting in some color on everything but the kids. The foregound/sand/ shadows are very thin. I have not started to lay in color on the children yet. It is still the Raw Umber underpainting.

The colors on my palette are yellow ochre light, yellow ochre, raw umber, titanium white, ultramarine blue, cobalt blue. These are the colors I have used. I also have on my palette Indian Red, Terra Rosa, raw umber, veridian and cadmium red.

I would be so grateful for advice on color. The sky looks cobalt to me and the water more ultramarine blue. But when I painted them that way it didn't look cohesive, so I toned down both dark blues.

Should I wait untl the last layer of paint to put in the white foam and wave to the left?

Hopefully tomorrow I will work on the kids. Now I have to clean up and do some accounting and earn some money - YUCK!!!!

Thanks for your eyes!
Pat

I'm so embarrassed...I made a few adjustment, now I REALLY have to get to work.

At this stage the horizon is not important rather your subjects. What you must first do is harmonize the value/colors in such a way to designate place of attention. Use the photo as an idea not as a means. You must create your idea and not copy the photo. You can combine cad red, yellow ocher plus white for skin tones and contrast this with variations of blue and raw umber, yellow ocher and white. So, your subjects are the center of attention, next the reflections in the watter of the subject then the water line closest to the subject and last a hint of horizon. If you think along these lines you will be fine.

Paint application. At this stage apply thinly all over. This way your paint will dry quickly and you will be able to make adjustments at will. Do not rush to the finish; let each day give you a fresh look.

I hope this will help.

Thank you Mischa,
You are a great help and I will pay attention to your advice as I paint. Yes, it is time to paint the figures, it is frustrating that I cannot paint them today. I wanted to establish the largest colors first so that I can incorporate and so that the figures will be the correct value/color. I need to hear your advice that coming in on another morning with fresh eyes will assist my progression.

SO MUCH to think about, but I have to admit, this is fun!

Patty,

Why are you embarrassed? There's no need to be.

The ocean near the shore is rising up into waves. Every time a wave begins to form, you will see the "underbelly" of the water, i.e. the color of the sand bottom. The deeper the layer of water over the sand bottom, the more the sand color will be dominated by the water color.

Farther out, the water is deeper and reflects the sky. Though the sky is blue, there is a cloud bank. The water is a deeper blue than the sky. But because there is a haze of cloud, the blue of the water is tinged with shadow. To nail the color, try mixing just a tiny bit of cad orange into the blue and lightening the value with white.

The same mixture of ult. blue + cad orange (only a tiny bit of color needed--balance to make a cool grey and mix with a lot of white) can be used to make the underside of the cloud. There is this direct relationship between the cloud in shadow and the water in shadow. The front top edge of cloud that is catching the sunlight from behind should be white plus the color of the light (a clear yellow rather than yellow ochre which is an earth tone).

Hope this helps a bit. There are other ways to do it, but this is how I would approach it.

Alexandra,
I am printing up your advice as well, and will play with these combinations as well.
You are a great help with your knowledge about clouds, sea, shadows, waves. I need all of this having never taken a landscape painting class. To be honest, this is my first landscape in more years than I want to count...

Patricia,
to make it easy I will suggest that you paint the sky and sea first, before the children, and keep the values light, in the upper third of the value scale.

Patty, I think it's looking great so far! At first glance my eye had to travel over the sand to get to the children, which shows depth already!

One thing I would encourage you to do is work on the children the same time you're working on the surroundings. My teacher called this "working a passage." She would draw an imaginary circle (like I've tried to do on your picture - hope it worked) around an area and say "paint inside the circle." Then she'd "draw" another circle somewhere else and say the same thing. And if you keep "painting inside the circle" you end up with a unified painting and avoid a cut out look. When you paint inside the circle you paint everything at once, rather than painting the individual objects. It took me a long time to understand this concept myself and I hope I've explained it in a way that makes sense.

Thank you Debra,
I will try that today. It is Saturday and I have a whole day AND tomorrow afternoon - will be posting my progress....

I am posting before I paint today with a question about the boy's face. The photo reference has no more detail than what I have painted. How can I made the face more present? I'm stumped...

Thank you
Patty

here's a closeup of the kids. Everything is still very unfinished. i want to made the kids the true center of attention...

Patty, can you post a closeup of the reference photo and even an extreme closeup of just the boy's face, even if it is blurry? This might help with generating some suggestions.

Sometimes if I have to work from bad references I enlarge them a lot even if they are not detailed. It helps to look at a very large image to see how I might interpret the information that I have.

I'm wondering what the client expects. I think that even with little detail you can make a successful figurative piece with painterly touches of color and light. Maybe this would be fine with your client. But next time, you might want to think out the size relevant to the information in the photo, and talk to the clients beforehand.

Thank you for your comments, Alex. It does help to look at it close up, even though it is poor quality. I know that the parents are not expecting a portrait. I do, however, want to capture enough of a likeness that they know it is their son. I think I have that, but am afraid to take it to the next level...

Here is a close up of the pic and here is also the painting so far. I have worked on the sky, sea, wave, a bit of the foreground. Am now working on their hair and am beginning to go into their skin/clothes before I work on the shadow and reflection. I would love your input, or anyone who wants to put in their critique!

Thank you for looking
Patty

here is a closeup of the kids. Looking at it I now wish I had focused on jus the kids, but then, the parents wanted the whole scene, so I guess I did not have a choice. I still feel that the sky and sea do not look like the right time of day. I do plan on heightening the wave to our right, just haven't gotten there yet.

Patty,
I have tried to remove some scratches to get a cleaner look at the face and sharpened a bit, hope that it helps.

About the shadow, remember that the blue is mostly in the direct reflection from the sky, so therefore the darkest shadow, where they sit, is warmer because of the sand color and the shadow at the left is mostly light blue because of the sky. It is that simple ;)

Thanks, Allan.
I am stopping for a break and I am feeling lost like I am not doing anything right anymore. Maybe I can come back to it later this afternoon, but I dont' want to ruin it. To me, at this stage it looks very blah. I know the reflections of three kids is not in and the foam defing the laps of water will help. Do you feel i have flattened it all out? I still have detail to build on the children too, but I owuld love more suggestions.

I know I am being real needy, never have depended on the critique section this much. thanks for looking...

Patty

Patty, don't get discouraged! Remember, it's like eating an elephant, the only way to do it is one bite at a time! I think it's coming along fine, it's just not finished. Keep your finished picture in mind and work towards it.

It doesn't look flat to me. About recognition, I would keep in mind bone structure, and body language or gesture, that's what we see first from a distance. I think you're doing well in this area. So I guess all I really have to say is you're coming along fine, keep working and you'll get it.

Patty,
I think that you are doing fine with the figures, but I suggest that you get the values and colors of the seascape right before investing too much work in the figures. You will see that the figures are a piece of cake for you once you get the values of the sea right.

The sea / water is like a mirror, it is light because it reflects the light coming from above. The foreground is as light as the background. You have to lighten the foreground value.
Paint the foreground in a sandcolor and gradually add some light blue untill you are out where the wave break, make it a gradual slide towards the light blue of the sea and paint the waves, foam and small nuances when you have the gradual foundation right, right.

The seascape is very light and the figures are both darker and lighter than the seascape and that is why I suggest that you fix the water first.

"The sea / water is like a mirror, it is light because it reflects the light coming from above. The foreground is as light as the background"

Allan, are you saying that the foreground should be as light as the background? So the sand should be the same value as the horizon? This should be a "light bulb" moment, but it is not!!! However, I do trust your advice, but I want to make sure I understand...

Here is where I finished off yesterday.

Thank you Debra and Allan so much,
Patty

Patty,
yes, I think that you can make the foreground very light. I see that you have already made the light, coming in between the figures, that light.

It is a good idea to simplify values at the start so I suggest that you make the foreground an even value and gradually mix the sandcolor and sky color. Then paint in the foam, waves and reflections afterwards.

You won't have enough value span for the rest of the painting if you graduate the foreground that much from the start, like you have done.

Forgive me my lousy explanations ;)

The reflection of the figures is so delicate and barely

The "learning" state of mind
 

I know I am being real "needy," never have depended on the critique section this much. thanks for looking...

Patty[/QUOTE]

Patty, your "needs" here are beneficial steps for everyone looking and learning. You are serving as an instructor even though you, yourself, are asking for help. I thank you for your honesty and humility as asking questions is the state of mind of a ready learner. Your painting is already beautiful.
:cool:

Allan,
I think I finally get it, thanks. Now I am looking forward to going back into it this weekend! You are so helpful.

Carol,
Thank you for your kind remarks, they are encouraging as well. It is our nature, as portrait artists, to be perfectionists, which I am used to in my drawing. Learning to paint propels me back to the all encompassing student, and yes, that is a good thing. I cannot find an artist in Cleveland I want to study with or take classes from so I do depend on the forum. I am happy to know that others are benefiting from my learning process.

I sooo apreciate your compliment. I have become blind to whether this is a decent painting in process or not....
Patty

I thought I was done, but
 

I thought I finished this yesterday but the colors are sinking in and the foreground is darker today than yesterday. How long do I have to wait before I can paint another layer to brighten the foreground, or do you think I should sign it and call it finished?

I am unhappy with seval things that I am afraid to try to fix this late in the game:
1. The horizon is too sharp but how can I soften it now? It looks bowed here but it is not, I measured all the way across.
2. The reflection of the white shirt is too bright, but I do think I could fix this.
3. I just couldn't figure out how to make believable foam!!! I am not, nor do I pretend to be a landscape artist!!! :bewildere

I am not convinced the viewer actually knows what time of day this is. I had to adjust colors from the reference photo because the clients wanted to see golden sand, which is not really in the picture. In the reference photo the sand is more wet/blue than anything else.

Anyways, I would love final comments in case there is a surefire way to make this better or to hear those magic words "sign it"!!!

You have all been so helpful to me, I can't thank you enough. I have learned SOOOOOOO MUCH from this project! But now, I am anxious to begin a head and shoulder in oils, what I really love to do!!

I don't know why my pics post so blurry. Can anyone help me? Also the color is a bit off

Pat, you have done an excellent job! I would not fret to much about the sinking in. What I would do, just before you give it to your clients, is I would take some linseed oil and go over the shadow with it ever so lightly. Another thing which should be done but a few months from now, when the painting is good and dried, is to have the painting varnished.

The horizon line. Mix up the two color/value of the water and ski. Using the water color/value make another lighter value. Stretch a string along your canvas where the horizon is to be. Use a red string in order to see it well and make sure it is perfectly horizontal. From a point, somewhere where the first wave is, do a gradation towards the horizon line. Your horizon line in reality, at such a distance is real close to the ski value. Besides, you wish to only give a hint of horizon and not give any indication for the eye to ponder to much on the horizon. The action is with the figures.

Also, Allan has given you a good suggestion but maybe you did not notice, some violets in the reflection even in the shadow of the figures. You can introduce this color even at this stage by oiling in the area you wish to paint, if it is dry, and mix the same value of the area you wish to paint but using reddish violet thinned down with dammar and linseed. This will produce somewhat of a glaze solution. Or, if you are not sure how to do this do a one brush stroke test in one spot.

Still, you could say its done and sign it which would be ok but I would fix the horizon regardless.

I am sure your clients will be pleased with this one. GOOD FOR YOU!

Mischa,
Thanks, I will post the results.

I think I am done, no, I know I am done, uhhhh, am I done?

YES! There is allot I am not happy about, but I don't think I should noodle anymore.

Thanks so much for your helpful suggestions. I have learned much from this project...

I'm not sure if I am done. I just see now that the last part of water, to our right should be at least as blue as the water on the right because of the position of the sun...ARRRGGGGHHHHH! (I love to complain an whine) Or am I realy gettng too crazy about this? The family is having a first communion party (very big in Cleveland) on the 29th and they would love to have it by then. If I sign it today I think I can deliver, at least in a basic frame.

Wonderful Painting!
 

Pat, it is beautiful - Just BEAUTIFUL!! You will get a huge amount of applause! On that you can depend. :sunnysmil