Need advice about career and degree
 

On Monday, I will be starting my third year of college at Northern Illinois University. Unfortunately, this school was chosen only because it was close by, and because it is relatively low in tuition cost. I feel very anxious right now because I was accepted by every major Academy that I applied at, but I simply can't afford to attend.

So here I am, attending a school whose art program I don't necessarily approve of, and studying in an environment were realism is practically taboo. I'm hoping that someone can relate to my situation, and give me some ideas about how to IMPROVE MY LIFE.

Thank You!
M. Severson

What do you want to do after college?

If you want to teach art at an accredited or otherwise well established institution a degree would be important, otherwise I might suggest you leave the school.

I spent two years at a college that sounds like the one you describe. I left to study for the next two years at a non-degree granting art college that taught me things that were closer to the kind of art I respected. Do I wish I'd stayed at the first school to finish my degree? Probably, but only because there were no schools in the country (Canada) that taught what I wanted to learn at that time.

Do I wish there were degree-granting colleges back then that were really teaching what I wanted to learn? You bet! Now there are.

Your decision would depend on where you'd like to see yourself in a few years.

If you want to be a working artist and really use the next few years to hone your skills I'd suggest you do everything within your power to find a school that will teach you the real stuff. There are now some schools that do the unthinkable: grant degrees AND teach real drawing and painting skills. You can find them on www.artrenewal.org

Perhaps you could afford to study somewhere that is a better fit for your goals by alternating one year of study and a year of work until you finish. That's probably what I'd try and do.

It doesn't sound like you're gaining much other than an expensive piece of paper with the letters BFA written on it by staying where you
are.

Good luck to you!

Matthew, congratulations on being accepted at those academies, that means you have potential, you wouldn't have been accepted if you didn't.

I can give you some advice that comes with age. (I started at an atelier when I was 48, and I wasn't the oldest person there.) I read on another post that you are only twenty. That's a perfect age, you have many years to get where you want. Take the degree and do something with it that will put you in a place where you can go to an academy. You could even take some time off from college and work to earn money so you can go to the school of your choice. My advice is to sit down and write out a plan for your life goals. And then get to work accomplishing them. What can you do today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, that will eventually put you in the place you want to be?

For right now, I'd be looking for other artists in your area who want to work realistically, see if you can take turns modeling for each other. Read books on drawing and painting, there are lots of good ones out there. Take summer workshops, etc.

Don't give up, don't despair, as the old cliche says "Where there's a will, there's a way."

Many an artist speaks fondly of his days selling sketches on the street, modeling for extra cash, and sleeping on a mattress on the floor. As a very young man, you have advantages that the rest of us don't. I'm not a candidate for living on a boat or sharing an apartment with six people, but you are.

In other words, find any means, by hook or crook, to go to one of those academies. Every sacrifice you make will be a great story you'll tell when you're my age. Trust me on this, I've been working a civil service job for 20 years, and I often regret not doing whatever it took to stay in art. Marriage brought responsibilities, which meant getting a "real job" and postponing a dream.

Find a way!

Matthew,

For what it's worth, here is my (with inflation) three cents worth. You've already got two years under your belt, stay where you are and get the university bachelor's degree. I believe you will never regret it, and that you may well regret abandoning it.

While you are in college, take other opportunities to do workshop study with artists who can really teach you - there are a lot of them out there. Once you get your bachelor's degree, there will be no fewer art opportunities open to you than there are now, including atelier study.

I have many times thought, "What if... what if I had a really great art background? What if I had attended an atelier? What if I hadn't had to support myself as a single woman for almost 20 years by being a hospital exec and not painting during that time? Would I be a better painter? Heaven only knows. My teacher Bill Whitaker said, " Doesn't matter. Art is a lifetime profession." I am grateful to him every day for that thought.

Your Bachelor's degree is a credential than will never,ever close doors to you. It can only open them.

Thank you all for your advice. I'm actually surprised that so many of the fine artists on this site do not have bachelors degrees, and its seems that most of you regret it. This is definitely enough incentive for me to stay in college!

Michelle, I have so many career options that is hard to put my finger on one of them. Since my school is hounding me for not making the decision "NOW!" I've been a little overwhelmed, and desperate to find the ideal career. I decided to go for a degree in illustration instead of drawing, because most drawing programs focus on creativity instead of accuracy. With my degree I would like to become either a medical illustrator or a teacher (preferably at a University)

Thanks
M Severson

Best of luck
 

Hi Matthew,
I don't feel like I can give you advice but I just wanted to wish you luck with your decision.

Personally, I have learned 95% of what I know about art by taking classes from local instructors, from workshops, reading books, and mainly just practicing. I do have a degree (in petroluem engineering) but obviously that hasn't been any bit of help in the art world. Do I wish I had a degree in fine arts? I don't think it would help me where I am now, I took some classes at the University of Texas in art before I switched to petroleum engineering and they were all geared towards the abstract. This was back in the 1980's. But I am glad to have some kind of degree.

When I have a big decision to make, I pray about it and listen for the answer.
Joan

Ah. The line of least resistance. Facts:

1. Today, there's not only "grade inflation", there's "degree inflation". A Bachelor's degree is about equivalent these days to what finishing high school was 50 years ago. It's best to have an undergrad degree in a marketable field, and "art" ain't it.

2. Welcome to the inbred "art world" of the cow-college circuit. Majoring in art for a Baccalaureate degree qualifies you only . . . to continue working towards an MFA, which will qualify you to become a clone of these art instructors you are now looking at with jaundiced eye.

3. Academies? What academies. There are a number of fancy "ateliers" with programs of instruction of more or less value, depending on which is under review. You may learn wonderful things in one of these, but your marketability in terms of finding employment as an illustrator or "artist" in active markets such as films and animation would be questionable.

4. Compared to what the field of "illustration" was even 30 years ago, aspiring to become a 21st century Norman Rockwell is currently about as relevant as deciding to build a fortune making buggy whips.

5. To make your living with a brush, look at trade schools that teach sign work and lettering . . . or beg, borrow, steal, cheat and lie to attend either the Art Center in LA or the Rhode Island School of Design.

6. If you finish college where you're at, and get a degree in business, or something that will make a living, you'll learn more about "art" (given your aesthetic preferences) by reading these boards and other art fora than you will taking art classes at the U. It's a lovely hobby!

Good luck!! (the world is your bivalve mollusk!!)

I feel compelled to defy conventional wisdom. Assuming that you have talent and desire to be a successful artist, I would strongly recommend that you take as many business and marketing courses as you can (perhaps toward a bachelor of business administration degree). One may be a phenomenal artist, but if you can't market the product and conduct a proper business, art will just be a frustrating hobby. The vast majority of really good artists are miserable failures commercially because they do not have the necessary sales skills or a proper mentor to guide them.

To acquire the necessary art skills, take the one or two week courses offered by outstanding artists such as Daniel Greene, Norman Shanks, Marvin Mattelson and others. You will learn more from them in a week than you will from a years instruction in most "art colleges". it will also a lot less expensive plus you will be able to get good guidance from someone who has succeeded.

One last point. Less than 5% of the population are entrepreneurs, 80% need to be told what to do and the remainder are somewhere in between. An entrepreneur is self assured, very focused on what they want to achieve and comfortable in pressing forward when everyone is telling them that they will fail. if you don't fit this profile, it will be difficult to succeed as a professional artist. The one exception is the artist that has financial support from another source such as a mate. This enables the artist to proceed with less of a fear of failure and the urgency to bring in income to survive. Eventually this type of artist can also succeed if the talent is there.

Make a plan for your future, set realistic goals and then work the plan to achieve the gaols. Success will follow.

Matthew--

My two cents:

Given that you want to do either medical illustration or teach, I'd finish the degree. Otherwise, if you want to be a fine artist without the special disciplines attached, leave and study more specifically in the academies, ateliers, and workshops, with those who teach what you want.

Medical illustration will require the ancillary stuff in the sciences. You may need to get a partial medical degree...some later grad work will definitely be in order (I investigated it at one time). Johns Hopkins and Medical College of Georgia used to have grad programs in it, but I don't know if they still do. Also, while you're there at the university, I'd take some business or entrepreneurship courses, and related technical courses like photography, media and IT. The advantage of a university is that there's a lot in one place, however watered down a given course might be.

If you expect to teach at the university level, you'll have to have the degrees. Community colleges are another story in some cases, but if they mirror our system, the pay is lousy.

Also, if something in you has to have a college degree to satisfy some psychological need or inner urge, that's a legitimate reason. But don't give this more attention or credence than it demands. For those who visit this forum who feel wistful that you never got a university art degree, don't spend a second looking back and pining. It speaks so little to what I do now, it was hardly worth it. In hindsight, I'd have taken another path if I knew I'd end up here.

While everyone might not agree on its value, though, you ARE halfway to the degree, and you don't have a clear picture yet of your future needs. When undecided, I often revert to "Better to have and not need, than need and not have." It'll be harder to double back and get it later.

Best of luck--TE

Be Smart. Finish your degree.
 

__________________________________________________ ___
Matthew, be smart and FINISH YOUR DEGREE! Two more years can go by quickly with a very worthwhile reward at the end - something no one can take away from you. Many careers don't care what your major was, only that you had the tenacity and intelligence to complete your degree. ALSO, Chris Saper didn't mention that she teaches a 5 day course at Scottsdale Artists' School called "For Love or Money: Portraiture." In that class she offers her students many practical methods of achieving beautiful portraits (lighting, color, getting a likeness, etc.) all interwoven with sound advice relating to the business of portraiture. It is one of the best courses that I have ever taken and taken and taken.... You could not enroll in :thumbsup: a more valuable course. This year's workshop dates are Dec. 10-14. Save your money, birthday presents and latte $ and you'll soon find that you can afford this gem. I must warn you, her workshops fill quickly. To hold a spot in the 5 day classes, the school requires only a deposit until the month before the workshop starts, so that would give you time to earn the rest.

Richard M., Tom, very well said!

I think Michele asked you some good questions.

What is a degree good for?
A: Teaching in a public university or college. You would need extra education credits to teach in K-12. You can teach at a private art school without one if your skills are what they need.
Teaching is more time consuming than you would think. For every hour you actually teach, you would have to put in another hour grading, doing course outlines and most tedious, syllabuses then there are those interminable faculty meetings.

The pay to start in most public colleges and universities is not great. RISD is pretty good as well as some of the other major colleges.

That is it as far as I can think.

B: Richard Bingham is right-don't waste your money on a degree in illustration it is a deader than dead duck as a career.

C: If you are interested in figurative work, do NOT go to RISD. I taught there I know. It is outrageously expensive and geared toward the abstract and theoretical artist. There is relatively little figure drawing after the first year. They have one long day of figurative work in the freshman year and the rest of the school years it is optional and relatively little is offered. There is a student group that organizes figurative work after hours but you have to pay for that. They feel the same way about figurative work as the school you are presently attending.

D: Art is a calling, not a business.You have to take a vow of poverty. Van Gogh only sold two paintings in his life; Molinard, a French Baroque court favorite, and total mediocrity became one of the wealthiest artists ever. Most of the the major forces in art history were interested in exploring concepts, color, paint manipulation, mediums etc. They were a curious lot. The were of course unhappy during the difficult years, some never overcame them.

E: It really depends on how talented you are. Talent is the single most important ingredient. It helps to have a keen intellect, courage and the ability to survive, perhaps, constant rejection.

You have to decide if you want a regular middle class American life and how important it is to you. The safest route is best here, but there is no quarantee of success that way either.

Personally I would rather spend my time and money studying with someone I respect and feel can learn from. I do not have a degree.

Try to go here, Lyme Academy
 

It is, last I looked, it costs 1/2 of RISD and completely figurative. It is in a gorgrgeous part of Connecticut. PAFA is good too.

It is on of the few tradional school of art giving a degree. A degree from here and PAFA would hold more weight than "Nowhere U", in getting a decent teaching job.

Maybe take a year off and transfer.

http://lymeacademy.edu/

http://www.pafa.org/splashHtml.jsp

Mat, I think you received more advice here than you bargained for. There is much wisdom here and I hope you can benefit from it.

It has been my experience to see many a graduate student from all walks of life even art search for a good art academy. Mind you these individuals love art and art is their passion. What is your hearts passion? Is it art? Pursue your hearts passion life is short and zooms by so fast.

Sharon summed it up well you will do well to take heed. If you are thinking about the pension fund don't. What you personally set aside for your future is what will be your security nest. Why do you think there are so many agencies offering private health and pension.

When I was in the US and deciding which school to attend and get a degree Lyme was my choice. The NY schools were on the top of my list as well but I chose the Angel Academy. Today, you have many good schools in the US to chose from. In the corporate world the degree is important in art it is not.

Tough choice hmmm

Sigh! More advice!
 

I spent two useless years at The Boston Museum School. I wasted my time and my parents money. I learned nothing. I was lucky if an instructor showed up. They were in the the full throws of the "do your own thing school of art".

Better you work those two years and save for a school that can really teach you something. You are so lucky to have so many options in the fields open to you. Take evening figure drawing classes.

Most of us who are older artists spent a long time trying to teach ourselves how to paint figuratively. It was a desert and many of us desperately haunted libraries to find anything we could about traditional painting techniques. There were no ateliers, workshops, nothing and except perhaps for PAFA, schools that taught traditional methods. You are very lucky to have these.

If you live near a "Whole Foods", that is a great place to work. They pay $9-10 per hour, if you work Saturdays, they will pay you time and a half for Sundays, plus you get 20% off on your groceries. Many Brown and RISD students work at the one near me. Waiting tables and bar tending in high end restaurants are great ways to make money.

Also, if you want a guarantee, that any of these paths will ensure success and security, I would not even think of going into the arts. It would be better to go into a more secure field like law, banking, accounting etc. and do it in your free time. It is always like working without a net.

A good friend of mine once said, "Art is not for sissies".

I

[QUOTE=Matthew Severson]I

[QUOTE=Matthew Severson] . . . I make $18/hour, working 36 backbreaking hours on the weekend, trying to pay for a education I

I don't have a degree. I never have been asked if I had one. My work was my degree. I am glad I did not waste anymore time in my school learning nothing of use to me to get a degree. The only person who regretted I did not get a degree was my mother.

A list of artists who did not have degrees: Sargent, Van Gogh, Manet, Monet, Gauguin, Kollwitz,Frieseke, Klimt, Cassat, Degas etc. In the later 209th Century - Basquiat.

A degree has only become important, the BFA's, The MFA's in the latter half of the 20th century. They have certified a lot of Junk.

These artists have degrees: http://www.maryboonegallery.com/arti...lins_info.html
http://www.maryboonegallery.com/arti...muth_info.html
http://www.maryboonegallery.com/arti.../mir_info.html

It is a crap shoot.

Take some time to consider this.

University art programs and art colleges today do not teach you to paint - they attempt to teach you to be articulate about your work.

Not a bad thing, really. :)

Some courses of instruction are more valuable than others, but even in the most valuable classes you still teach yourself to paint. You paint with your brain even more than with your eyes.

I don't think we can compare the historical Beaux Arts education to our present degree programs. Many of the artists discussed on this forum had at least some exposure within the Beaux Art system.

It's not where you learn something. It's what you learn. Anyone attempting a painting career should be open to all the culture around them and a university education is very good for that exposure.

As mentioned previously in this thread, just showing the tenacity to complete a degree program tells the world something about you.

For those reasons, I'd vote to finish the program.

Another suggestion: Talk to the faculty. Tell them what you want or offer to give a class. I expect any art faculty would be delighted to find a serious portrait oriented painter who wants to increase his/her knowledge of that subject. My recent experience in college is that figurative and portrait study is now accepted and desirable.

Also, I agree with many others here who have suggested you attend specialized portrait courses. You can do both, maybe not right now, but you are young. You have time.

The way an artist communicates IS his work. The reason we consider being articulate about our work is that much of contemporary art has to come with an instruction booklet. It has gone so far as there are some 'art forms' that leave out the oeuvre and are just books- theoretical art. I would agree, however, that being articulate is important no matter what is being discussed.

In looking at Tony Ryder's biography, I noticed he left RISD after one year to plow more fertile fields, where he felt he could actually learn something of benefit. I don't know whether he has his degree, but his search to learn what is valuable to him shows a great deal of tenacity.

Having been in a similar position, I opted out of finishing my degree and pursued the art I loved in my own quixotic way.

You

Mathew,

You are probably buried under this avalanche of information.

However, I must add that you are very lucky to get such a wealth of information from such a variety of experiences of many talented people.

Most of us when we were young artists looked at only a confusing wilderness. What indeed was the best path? There are so many more choices today. Sift through this information. You will know -believe me-what fits your situation best.

The best of luck to you, and I am sure this thought is echoed by all of us.