An honest assessment
 

Hello all,

Well, I know this is a lot to ask, but I have read things on this forum that make me feel like this could be appropriate and someone might take the time to answer! I feel that I need an assessment by those who know what they are talking about concerning where I am and if my prices are appropriate.

About a year ago I found the SOG site and artists (but not the forum), focused my work and made goals. I have reached the goals that I set out to accomplish by now (to be able to paint a better quality in less time and have a set of paintings that I feel good showing to others) but don't really know where I stand now. I know, of course, that I have a ton to learn and do not compare to the experienced pros on this site, but don't feel I am able to compare my work to others in order to gauge where I am in the market.

I'll start out simple with my graphites. Below is a graphite I was commissioned to do almost a year ago. It was one of three. On my current price list, I charge $75 each.

Next I will post a pastel. I enjoy pastels, but don't bring them up anywhere close to the kind of finishes I've seen. I offer it as something affordable (too affordable?) that is still in color. My current price list has a head and shoulders at $150.

Finally, my oils. I love doing oils and would love to get commissions for these. Oils have been my main focus, but I haven't created a price list at all for them. I've gotten wind of some people being interested in having them done, but nothing yet. I also don't know what kind of prices I should put on works I have done that I would like to sell, especially if I plan on ever going to a gallery.

I just bought a seperate domain than my current one and plan to use it for only my best fine art and would like to include an online price list that I can feel confident about. I have no other artist friends (except one abstract-type guy) and would definately appreciate any advice or input.

To see more for a better idea: www.lsquaredartwork.com/paintings.htm

Here's my two cents worth:

Step 1. Create half a dozen portrait samples in oils and other media, just under life size, of the high quality seen in some of your best work: your painting of the girl pinning up her hair, the portrait of the red haired man with the glasses and the head and shoulders portrait of the girl with dark hair and the red dress. (You might want to try a variety of subject matter for your new samples: one painting of an older man in a suit, a woman, a girl, and one painting of a little girl and boy together, for example.)

2. Delete many of the lower quality portraits now on your site.

3. Once you have six or so great new samples, start charging $1,000. for a head and shoulders in oil. (I can't comment on pastel or charcoal prices since I don't do that kind of work.)

4. Promote your work among people who can afford it. Donate to some high end charity auctions to get your name and work out there.

Good luck!

Wow, Michele! I cannot explain how... flabbergasted I am! I'm blushing like mad and almost in tears! (Deep breath, exhale.)

I cannot explain my reaction when I saw $1,000 for a head and shoulders (after I get my portfolio up to snuff, that is). I feel like I am on that Antiques Road Show. :o

OK, I will definitely get on that right away. I already know a few I should delete, but would you mind telling me if there are any in addition to the ones mentioned above that I should keep? Also, should I let any of the ones to be deleted ever see the light of day again?

Bear in mind this very important thought: You will be judged by the worst piece in your portfolio. Never let anything that you feel is not up to your high standards be seen by anyone. You are working on establishing a reputation as a consistent high performer.

Okay, here are the ones I would keep: The three I mentioned above, the painting of the woman in the green wrap seen from the back (but not the version showing her face in profile), also keep the boy with the blue light on the side of his face, the very young blonde girl (but fix the shape of the eye on our right). Of the black and white ones I would also keep the one shown above, the one of the boy and girl together and the seated nude shown from the back.

On your website I'd delete the sculpture section, the photography section, the new media section, the murals and the links section. None of them enhance your reputation. I'd also get rid of the blurred mouse-over effect.

I look forward to watching your progress.

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply to this and for giving so much great advice. I hope you know how much it is really appreciated.

For my web site, I plan to use my new domain just for the fine art, and only the best of it. I do plan on having a links section on that site, too, but I want it to be art related and have links to things like an essay by Virgil Elliott titled Restoring Prestige to our Profession.

I do plan to keep the one I have now, but only for web design and logo examples... what can I say, it brings in money! I will not have a link from my fine art site to this site. Eventually, I'll get rid of the other stuff completely.

I'm so excited! I feel lucky because so few get the chance to pursue what they really want, and also feel good about all the hard work I've been doing.

Lacie if you have the heart the other things will fall into place. You have a good start and the points made by Michele are very valid but don't let them overwhelm you. If you are anything like most of us just getting out you will be producing tons of work (In a few years you'll want to go collect it because of the progress you have made).


As related to this site... your benefits here if it is your intention to strive to be an SOG ARTIST, status are so worth the time. There are many talented artist here that are so generous in what they give you and you will find yourself treating them as personal relationships as you grow. The key words are as you grow, because you will, it's the practice practice practice and tips on tools and materials and lighting. They all somehow come together.

March foreword... I know there are a group of Ompalompas that work for Cynthia and when your are ready she will grab you . It's a great feeling to be grabbed by the way, lucrative too!

Now no laughing, I am posting one of my first commissions. I think I was paid 400.00 and the mother gave me everything down to a catalog for the clothes, live and learn. Well I told her I wanted to redo them no charge, because of high traffic, so hopefully you will see a difference. I also charge 3200.00 for this type of 3/4 view. These are pastels, the earlier is on Canson, the latest is on Wallis.

Hi Lacey,
it is a really good question. I do not have the experience to answer you, but i am interested in hearing the views of the professionals.

I have received advice recently about pricing my own work which is new to the market. The advice basically went that i should judge for myself, my level of competancy compared to what is out there in the galleries. After all, we really only have our own taste to go by, so I think this was good advice.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes for you.

I am also at the threshold of announcing my portrait busyness and am grateful for those advices.

I think it

Thanks to everyone for the great replies! It's so nice to be part of such a wonderful community.

Elizabeth, I definately have the heart! I have been interesed in the figure and portraiture since... I don't even know when. I remember drawing a portrait of my baby-sitter's daughter when I was about 7. I used a bingo-dabber to make the rosy cheeks, and used lipstick for the lips. Hah! Now, I spend a minimum of 20 hrs per week actually painitng or drawing and I don't know how much time on top of that researching and trying to learn more. I don't think I could stop if I wanted to.

Thanks also for the encouragement. I'd post my first attempt at an oil portrait, but (caugh, caugh) I'd rather not! Luckily, I haven't done any of these under commission, except for a football mura for a kids room.

Tricia, that is what I find so difficult: judging my level of competency. I know that people say they love my work and are so impressed with it, but they also said that when I was in high school! I can see where I have developed above an amature or hobbyist level, but really can't tell where I fall amongst anything above that.

Great advice, Allan. I am trying to constantly remind myself to always have control over my work... like not painting something that I would not normally paint or in a style that is not mine. I don't think I will have the studio problem for now, because I don't have a studio and my house is in an area of town that potential clients might not want to travel to. But I do agree that I need to show only my best, and have prices set so that I don't feel I have to give a low quote.

Thanks all again! I look forward to learning and growing from what I learn here.

As far as time spent researching, I have a suggestion: If you have the time or inclination, and it sounds like you do, I highly recommend spending an hour or two a day for the next few months studying all the past threads in this forum. All the critiques, all the materials and techniques sections, all the marketing posts, and especially all the threads on how to photograph people to get good reference photos.

Without a doubt, this forum got me to where I am now in my portraiture career.

I think I already spend an hour or two per day reading through the forum :D or going through links I find on the forum. The rest of the time I am looking through library books. I get books on the masters and books on technique, though I think I've gone through all the books on technique that are of any value (picked up Chris Saper's book a few times!) that are in the library's collection. Now I am looking at the books reccomended here and there on the forum and looking for books and videos by my favorite living artists and am going to start buying. (Will take reccomendations, as well!) Hopefully in the near-ish future I will be able to travel for workshops, too.

I am very glad that I chose to dedicate myself to what I love, even though it takes sacrafice financially.

Hello Lacey,

I think your work shows great possibility. Good luck. As to your web site, I believe some of the links that you provide hurt your reputation as a serious professional. Although he is your uncle, I'd take out the link to your uncle's rock band for two reasons:

1- It isn't related to your art in any way that I can see, although I may be wrong.

2- Too many "F" words. The anger expressed in the web page is completely not in agreement with the rest of your artwork. I believe it also makes you look less professional.

Good luck,
Anthony

Thanks, Anthony!

Yes, I agree about the links and such. When I started the web site, I was mostly using it for friends and family. I moved to Kansas from Upstate NY and was trying to keep them up on what I was doing. I am asking for this assessment because I feel ready to begin the transformation into the professional world, but needed the outside opinions first.

It may take a while, but I'll post a link here after the metamorphosis!

Good luck Lacey,
You'll do well.
Anthony

Fee schedule
 

Hi again!

I am in the middle of creating a new website just for my portraits and figurative work and am looking forward to my new, serious, professional style.

I thought that I would continue in this thread with further questions about the price list, although if need be it can be moved to a new thread. I am trying to figure out a reasonable price difference between mediums, sizes, and amount of the subject included. I want to use that $1,000 as the base price for a head in shoulders in oil, as sugested. But I want to make sure that my increments for including more of the subject aren't too wide or too narrow. I'd rather price on the amount of subject included as opposed to canvas size. Here's a wild guess for oils:

Head and shoulders: 11 x 14 to 16 x 20: starting at $1,000
Half Length with Hands: 20 x 24 to 24 x 30: starting at $2,000
Full Length: starting at $3,000

I don't know if doubling the price for moving up to a half length is reasonable or not. Input please?

As for pastels, should I price them at about 1/2 of the oils, or closer to 3/4 of oils? I've seen a variety of ranges when I've looked around others' sites. What about pencils, charcoals, or other monochromes? I want them to be affordable, but I don't want to price them so low that they seem worthless. Maybe $150-200 for an 8x10 to 11x14?

Any advice or opinions appreciated. :sunnysmil

Hi Lacey,

I've really enjoyed seeing your works in progress--and finished works--on the forum, most recently your fascinating self-portrait. I just checked out your website and I think it is very well-designed and it showcases your work very well! Michele's advice on how to improve it was right-on!

I agree about the prices for oils. $1,000, 2,000 and 3,000 sound reasonable to me. I'm not sure about the graphite and pastel work because I don't sell any myself. $100 might be a little low for a pastel but I'm not sure. It seems to me that a lot of people would want your work and will commission you.

I keep thinking about what an art consultant told me about 10 years ago. She said, "You really should raise your prices for your portraits. If you keep them too low, you are not only undercutting your own business, you are undercutting other portrait painters' business." That really stuck in my head: the idea that I could actually not only hurt myself (by not valuing my work enough) but hurting others, both by taking business away from them, unintentionally of course, because of my lack of awareness of the market; and by lowering the bar on how much people expect to pay for a certain level of work.

Off to a great start!

Alex

Thanks for the reply and wonderful advice, Alexandra.

I was all set and ready to post my oils starting at $1,000 but then my husband suggested that I start at $500 until I get one or two commissions at that level and then raise my prices by the beginning of the year. It's so stressfull! I keep arguing with myself about what I should post on my site, I mean I haven't afterall, yet added the 6 new works. But I don't want prospectives to devalue my work, either.

I definately do not want to devalue art and bring the overall market value down! The advice you quoted from an art consultant gives me something to think about as I am going through this.

Just as I was typing this, I thought about a guy I just e-mailed about exhibiting my work in his bookstore/gallery and what his reaction would be to my prices. So I raised them all to be between starting at $500 and starting at $1,000. I feel better now, but my head is still spinning!

I'l let you know what my thoughts are once I straighten my head out. Maybe I'll slowly raise until the beginning of the year or when I have added 5 more works, whichever comes first. Hmm...

Here's my thinking:

I don't want to bring the perceived value of oil portraits down by charging too little. But then, I'm not a seasoned professional either.

I've decided to charge $500 for a head and shoulders portrait and go up from there for full body or backgrounds.
I have made peace with raising my prices from the advice I got from Cindy Procious who suggested that by raising my prices, those folks who already have work by me have somethign that just increased remarkably in value.

My clients know I'm relatively new to portraiture and it's my name that is a discount deal right now. But by the quality of my work, they can see that my name will begin to mean more over time as I increase my mastery of this art. I would hope to leave them with the impression that they did get a good deal and this art they now have will indeed increase in value as time goes by and as I raise my prices and build my reputation.

That's my thinking anyway, for now. Anything could happen to cause me to change my mind and have to adjust my strategy. I don't know if I'll ever make a living at this; I just enjoy it so much that I want to do it.

The other consideration is repeat customers. If I do a commission for someone at $500 and 6 months later they want another portrait of their other child, they might not appreciate paying $800 for "the same thing". If I start at $500, I have to be willing to increase my prices gradually. I would be wary of giving repeat customers "deals" as they might come to expect it every time and want another $500 portrait when my work now costs $1500.

That's my two cents worth. (Or $500 worth.)

Starting low
 

I agree with the camp that suggests starting higher. My thinking is that often when you start at a "bargain" price, the consumers you are reaching are a completely different segment of the population than you might appeal to in a higher range. IF that is so, then when you raise your prices, you'll be marketing to a new group "from scratch", so to speak. One (wise) person told me, "Don't start out selling a bargain product, unless you want to sell a whole lot of bargain products!". I mean this in the nicest possible way. :D

Here's another thought. If you are concerned about how/when to raise prices, then you could start out with the $500 portrait advertised as a temporary deal off the regular price. Publish the prices you are aiming for , and show your short-term discount. Then folks won't be stunned by a hike. Also, you may get repeat business more quickly!

Great topic, by the way.

Brenda, could you post two or three of your recent portraits so that we might be able to give you some pricing suggestions?

It's true what Molly said about marketing in a whole new way to a different market segment as your prices go higher. However, if I'd started marketing to a high end clientelle without the experience I have now, I don't think I'd have connected with them. I've found that each rung on the ladder (of price, of quality of work, of exposure, of experience in dealing with clients) has prepared me for the next rung.

Hi Michele,

Here are a few samples. I've only done one oil portrait so far (the last image), so the others are pencil or pastel (the man is pastel.)

I'm not referring people to my website right now as I think it's too amateurish looking and I don't have enough good work. I'm not actively advertising right now, either. The commissions I'm getting currently are from word of mouth or friends. I know I need a larger porftolio of more oil portraits before I would feel really ready to actively seek out commissions. Any direction you could give me would be appreciated.

From reading your other posts, you sound knowledgable and I would value your opinion.

Thanks.

By the way, the man at the piano is not finished. I've left it like this for a while because I can't decide whether to make the rest of it realistic or somehow less well-defined. I want the head and hands (holding the sheet music) to stand out.

Brenda, if the rest of your oil portraits are as good as that one you can charge a lot more than $500. Maybe start at $1,000 and see how it goes.

My repeat customers pay whatever my going rate is at the time, regardless of what they've paid in the past. For example, I'm doing a second portrait for a family whose older child I painted two years ago. At that time they paid $4,900 for a three quarter length portrait with a very complex background. Yesterday they signed a contract for $7,800 for the same type of portrait. My prices are now more in line with what people charge nationally for this sort of work, and I've had some higher profile commissions in the intervening two years, which is why my prices are higher. I'm told by folks who really know the portrait business that my prices are still on the low side, however.

Horray!
 

Yea! Go Michelle!!! You inspire each one of us.

Just so you know, that growth represents years of full time work on my art, a great percentage of which was taken up by non-billable hours: administrative stuff, marketing, etc.

Thank you, Michele.
Let's hope that my first oil portrait wasn't a one-off.

Your work is beautiful; I am not surprised by those numbers you posted.

I just feel like I'd have to grow into that $1000 price. I suppose if I'm not going to seek commissions right now and keep myself busy learning and painting a lot until I do feel ready to start advertising, then that $1000 price could act as a nice "Do Not Disturb" sign in the meantime!

Hello Brenda,

I think your work is very well done. I could be wrong, but maybe the four digit number ($1000) may be frightening you. Go for it. I don't think you've got to grow into it. I think you've already done that. When I first got accepted into my first gallery, (my income is from still-lives, not portraits) I was surprised at the prices they told me they'd ask. But it works.

You WILL do well, just never forget that!!! You've already paid the price to put a $1000 price tag on your work. The next step, for all of us, is to continue to grow. Isn't that what makes this field so exciting?

Good luck,
Anthony

Thank you, Anthony, for your encouragement and kind words. :)
I will take it to heart.