A question for Marvin about his palette of limited color
 

Marvin:

Let me make bold and ask a question regarding your palette.

Did I have an epiphany, or am I a slow-starter who is stuck in neutral gear? Isn't your basic palette directly related to those very simple, very limited palettes of many years ago?

Your palette (as I understand it from reading, here) consists of two reds (one warmer, one cooler), a yellow, and black (with a little warming agent to make it come out neutral).

Isn't this the basic "very limited palette" we keep bumping into in discussions of learning color by the use of red, yellow, black and white?

Mind you, I'm not knocking this palette, or you. Personally, I think these very few colors serve portraiture extremely well. If a guy was in a real pinch, he could get by with only these four tubes of paint.

A bit of raw umber, a bit of blue, a bit of green would help, of course, but this palette could make almost any color you need.

Or, am I like the old, slow-paced snapping turtle who gets hold of something, and won't let go until it thunders?

Recently Marvin posted these pictures along with the two following posts regarding his palette. I throw in another related post by Jon De La Vega:

The palette you are using is very hard to control and I would suggest a more traditional palette for flesh painting. Yellow ochre pale, yellow ochre, terra rosa, sinopia (or indian red), raw umber and ivory black will deliver an extraordinary range of human tones that are both beautiful and quite lively. This served artists such as Van Dyke, Rembrandt, Titian and Paxton. 1-20-03

Per Marvin Mattelson

I mix each color on my painting. They are as follows. For flesh:Light Red, Indian Red, Yellow Ochre, Titanium and Flake Whites, Ivory Black and Raw Umber. These are the colors that Paxton used. This pretty much covers the entire gamut of skin tones that appear in natural daylight. For more chromatic skin genuine Blockx Naples Yellow and Vermilion can be added modestly. 3-2-03

Jon De La Vega, copied from forum

My suggestion is that you do another portrait, in which you could also add a bit more contrast, with brighter lights (start with, say, a Naples yellow light or deep -Old Holland Naples Yellow Deep Extra is a fabulous basic flesh tone- mixed with another Old Holland, Brilliant Pink, both great hues that keep you from having to use too much white, thus avoiding the 'chalky' look. Keep the non-light area clean (don't use browns or greys, just mix the shadows from deep rose and a bit or raw sienna, adding maybe a smidget of 'darker' yellow-green).

I just caught onto this thread but need clarification Marvin or Mike, please explain what is in the rows and why are the rows set out like this?

Ngaire,

Marvin is on sabbatical, and I'm afraid that if I took a shot at explaining this I would just butcher it up. Maybe someone more familiar with Marvin's palette would like to offer an explanation.

Here, from one of Marvin's previous posts, is a short, but cogent paragraph that explains those rows of paint:

The top row is mixed from white, raw umber and ivory black. The next row is yellow ocher lowered with raw umber. The Yellow ocher is lightened with yellow ocher pale which is, in turn, lightened with white. The third row down is terra rosa lightened with white and lowered with black. The bottom row is Indian red lightened with white, and lowered with black. I call it the Mattelson Palette. I named it after my dad.

This is brief, but clear and explanetory.

Mattelson Student Palettes
 

Ngaire,

I'll take a stab at it since I have taken one workshop with Marvin and will be back with him for two weeks in July. Forst, this is the complexion palette arrangment based on William McGregor Paxton's flesh tone color choices. The main colors in his palette for flesh tones are:
Flake White #2 (Michael Harding best brand for student)
Raw Umber
Ivory Black
Yellow Ochre and Yellow Ochre Pale
Terra Rosa
Indian Red
The brand I use are Window and Newton

What you are seeing on his palette is an arrangement of four rows
Grey string
Yellow String
Warm Red String
Cool Red String

Each string is mixed in nine values labeled from 9 to 1 (1 being the darkest- think of wattage in light bulbs, higher wattage is brighter color). To quote Marvin, "this palette is designed to achieve cleaner color notes with a purer hue. All colors are mixed within their own value row to avoid muddiness). I use thirty-six brushes four in each value and NEVER use the brush in one value or mix a color from one value to another, to keep your colors clean.

While this sounds cumbersome, once you have established the palette which takes less and less time to mix the more you do it, the easier it is to attain the chroma, hue, and values in your painting.

I would strongly recommend you visit Marvin's website (here through SOG) and email Marvin. He will most likely be happy to respond to your inquiry. I hesitate to explain the palette further since I am a novice myself.

Good luck. I believe you would find this very easy to work with, as it is designed to aid his students in New York and in his workshops.

Thanks guys for the responses. Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I have been a little busy.

It looks a very interesting way to set out a pallete. Have you found any disadvantages to it yet Patricia.

Did you find it an easier way to use Patricia than the old 'around the outside type setup'?

I will re do this in my sketch book and have a play with it.

Thanks heaps Richard, please explain the reference more?

Would you like to go into more detail?

Ngaire:

Not having studied with Marvin, I would be presumptious trying to explain his system. That said, the pictures, above, seem pretty clear as to how he lays out his palette.

If my limited knowledge of art history counts for anything, I see his palette as one version of those early-on very simple palettes you will hear and read about as you go on studying art. Anders Zorn, for one, used a very simple palette such as this, and produced exceedingly beautiful art, as did quite a few other very well known artists from times past.

Since the basis of this palette has been used by such well known artists and has stood the test of time, I doubt that there will be many "drawbacks" to it. I find none. In fact, I would say my work has improved since I began using Indian Red, Venetian or English red, black and yellow.

Marvin, it seems to me, goes to a bit more effort by setting out his grays, reds and yellow in value steps that make value selection easier. Go up to the top of this page, find Search, and type in Marvin Mattelson. A lot of posts will come up, several of which will be copies of Marvin's work. If you look at his art, you will see the terrific results that can be obtained from this palette.

Thanks Richard for your take on Marvin's pallete. I will also do as you suggested and do a decent search to learn more as I am becoming more interested in this pallete the more I learn about it.

I ended up emailing Marvin with the same question, but although he is very busy and didn't go into real detail, he did clarify my question.

Ngaire,
I cannot compare Marvin's palette to any other because my experience is so limited. But I will be back in three weeks, after a workshop with Marvin and will give you any insight I may gain, for what it will be worth :exclamati

Patricia:

Pay attention to Marvin. His is not the only way there is to paint, but he achieves remarkable results. The proof is in the puddin', as they say, and Marvin's puddin' is very tasty, indeed.

And, I, too, would be interested in your observations about his workshop. I've been contemplating going to one, but so far, they are so distant from me. I'm hoping that someday, he will have one in Tulsa.

Richard,

I attended Marvin's one week workshop in Atlanta in January and couldn't wait to attend his two week workshop this summer! I tried to get into his two week since New York but was closed out, so that is why I am attending in Vegas next week and the week after.

Marvin is a phenominal teacher. He gives you so much information and it all makes perfect sence. The admosphere in his workshops is very friendly, nonthreatening and very conducive to learning. Before attending his weeklong workshop I had never painted a portrait in oils, so my learning curve was, well, you can imagine!

That is why I cannot wait until this weekend when I get to go back for more...and for two weeks. Will report back!

Patricia:

I'm dying to hear your report about Marvin and his palette.

I have looked at this thread several times over the last month. I have looked at that photo of Marvin Mattleson's palette several times. And tonight, looking at it, I finally get it. I finally see what he's got laid out there. It makes sense to me! This is exciting for me because it means I'm learning something by hanging around this forum.

Richard and Brenda,

I feel so inadequate. I have tried to write more about Marvin's palette and his approach but feel unqualified as I have only been painting for eight months. Marvin's way is the only way I know. I took oil painting classes in the past two years that left me so frustrated and muddled (mentally and literally, my colors were MUD!!!)

I needed direction and clarity. I got it from Marvin's approach and his instruction. I knew what I wanted to see in my paintings but I didn't know how to get there. Now, though I have years to work this out, I am happy when I put my brush to a canvas, the colors that happen upon my canvas now are exciting in their beauty! I guess Marvin's palette is just exactly what I see in the master's paintings, like Bouguereau , Paxton, Jerome and that is what I want in my paintings - the rich colors of the earth. I don't want to see green and purple in my fleshtones and I never will when using Marvin's palette. I want the reality, the softness, the nuance Marvin can get.

I think that the best way to learn about Marvin's palette is to reread everything he has written here. I would also suggest you talk and listen to Janel Maples and Enzie Shahmiri and Val Warner. They are far better portraitists than I and use Marvin's palette also. And while Marvin works on his book, let's hope it is published in record time!!

Best of luck - you are on the right path!! I've attached a ref pic of a closeup of one of Marvin's paintings I keep in my studio - inspiration!

Patricia,

From seeing your portrait from the workshop, I can see that this palette is really working for you.

I will not be able to afford Marvin's workshop for the foreseeable future. (But I can't wait to get his book!)

I have to, for now, rely on the info I get from this forum. It is harder to absorb just by reading and seeing photos than it probably would be in a workshop doing hands-on. I persevere and I am putting Marvin's palette into practice on a portrait I'm working on right now.
We'll see how it turns out. One part reading, one part looking at results in Marvin's and other's work, one part conjecture and one part hubris. ;)

Brenda,
I think you are going to do very well. Your last painting, of Betsy is so beautiful. I think the greatest asset an artist has is her/his determination to learn and the attempts made to apply what we learn. Also, I believe that studying others work is so important. I try to go to the art museum in Cleveland as often as I can to view masterworks in person. Some day I will get up the courage to see if I can copy an original at the Cleveland Art Museum, like Janel is doing right now. I think one would learn so much by doing so.

Pat,

I hate to tell you, if you wait around for the courage you will never get to the museum. It is terrifying!!!! But SO EXCITING.

I can not put enough exclamation points at the end of the sentence that I will never regret doing this to myself!

On to Marvin's pallette. There is no excuse not to take Marvin's class if something about his method is talking to you. If you sell your work, one commission will pay for it. And what is your time worth to you now? Do you really want to waste you time practicing how to paint wrong?

I have a husband, I have small children, I missed my sister's wedding, my brand new condo in Cozumel, Mexico was being hit with hurricane Emily the day I started laying in color. Shall I go on? I can tell you if money was a problem.......I would take out a loan.
I guarantee you will get more than what you pay for with his instruction. Other students of Marvin.......Am I WRONG?

I can say this now, becasue the workshop I coordinated for Marvin is over and done and I have NOTHING to gain by being his sales person, if you are serious about your art you owe it to yourself to take his workshop. Ahhhhhh and it is so much FUN. I ran myself ragged for two weeks and had a ball, an absolute ball. Thank you Marvin!

I know I sound like a hard @$$ here but if you would get to know me you would realize I am really not one. I am just trying to get the word out about what this man can do for anyone who is in the dark about color (no punn intended).

: )

Thank you, Janel.
Wanna buy a kidney? ;)

That's the spirit........where there is a will, there is a way!

; )

Brenda, you gave me a great laugh! I can relate to your wanting to learn Marvin's methods. Not only are his works breathtaking, the works of his students are so consistently wonderful. See PSoA best of show and people's choice winner and Mattelson student, Joseph Daily here .
I have long admired his students' works and wrestled with myself over whether I could afford the money, or for me more importantly the time away to study with him. I have finally made the commitment. I have enrolled in his weekly classes in New York City, which will run for 10 weeks (I am taking the Saturday classes) starting in September. I'll get six hours per week with Marvin. Yeeha! I understand that folks have traveled hundreds of miles each week to attend. My 135 miles seems pretty easy in comparison. I am really looking forward to this experience, even if I spend 50% of my Saturday time on the road. Yikes :D

Many thanks to Janel, Patty, Enzie et al for sharing your experiences. It really is inspiring to many.

Ditto, Janel!
I did take out a loan to study with Marvin and I consider it the best investment I can make in my future as an artists. Heck, I figured that if I could take out student loans to getmy undergraduate degree, it made more sense to take out a loan for Marvin's workshop!!

I am 50, I only have so many years to paint and I want the greatest learning curve I can attain - I get that with Marvin. Molly I can't wait to hear your reports after you start studying with Marvin in New York - I'm very excited for you.

And Janel, I am going to the art museum tonight for my regular visit, but I am calling the museum today to see about painting there - you inspire me!!! :)

Go Patty, GO!

Curiosity question for all the readers out there. Is our enthusiasm coming through loud and clear through the type? Hope so. I love this energy!

Hi Everyone,


This is my first post here on the Forum, I was reading these threads on a limited palette consisting of three or four strings and thought perhaps I might be able to give a little insight into this type of system.


The system is quite simple and I found it quite useful when I first began painting with color. It basically breaks the color selection process into a three step system pertaining to the three components of color; "Value", "Hue" and "Chroma."


The palette is laid out as follows a red string (a string being globs of various values moving from light to dark or vice versa all of the same hue family, often nine), a yellow string and a blue string. Some artists also perfer to add a neutal gray string. All the strings are laid out left to right according to which string they belong to. Additionally, the values are the same as you move up and down between the various strings.


The way this is then used is the artist first considers the value they need and scans left to right or vice versa to the correct grouping of values.


The artist then decides on the hue choice they want. Hue meaning red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet and or some combination such as red-orange. The artist then mixes the appropriate strings together to make the correct hue choice. For instance If the artist wants orange they would mix from the red string and from the yellow string. Because the values they are mixing from are already the same they do not cause an alteration in value as they are mixing the color.


Lastly, the artist must then decide if the hue and value mixture they now have is correct in terms of chromatic intensity. If the color is too chromatically intense they need to either mix up the complement from the hue choices they have at that same value and slowly add it to what they already have or if they have a neutral string slowly add the neutral of the same value until they have sufficiently grayed down their mixture.


Wow, for something relatively simple that came out quite lengthy. Basically this palette allows the artist to address value, hue and chroma one at a time.


Hope that helps someone.

Very good explanation, Douglas! :)

Thanks for your time!

Rui.

Specially mentioning the possibility of including the complement rows.

Rui.

Yes, Douglas, thanks for the breakdown. It took me a while of looking at this thread and reading the posts to "get" that.
But now this has become a great tool for me. I don't use exactly Marvin's palette but I still break my palette down into values and it helps me quite a bit, being a beginning painter.

I realize this is an old thread but I was interested Pat in how you organize 36 brushes when painting?

This blog explained it very plainly to me after doing a search like suggested and had a diagram of the progression.

Very interesting!

http://underpaintings.blogspot.com/2...n-palette.html

If you interested, here is quite a good breakdown and explanation of Marvin's Palette:

http://underpaintings.blogspot.com/2...n-palette.html

I have been using Marvin's Palette for almost 10 years. One aide is a value pattern that you can place under glass that you mix your palette on. The guide helps you nail each value. To obtain the Value pattern you can probably get it from Marvin. I could give you directions on how to do it but I feel it is Marvin's intellectual property and it would be inappropriate for me to do so.

Here is an illustration of the Value pattern but it is only a close proximity to the actual values. This illustration is only to help you visualize the real thing.

I use one that I have expanded to over 20 inches wide.

Thx, light can change its appearance.
 

When we changed the angle to see the value chart, it changed a lot.