Ethics and art
 

Someone brought it to my attention yesterday that there could be an ethical dilemma with entering competitions after posting work on forums for critiques

It's not dishonorable or unethical. It's no different than Monet and his buddies sitting around in the real Cafe Guerbois talking with Renoir about his latest painting. Don't worry about it.

If your brother-in-law had a good eye and suggested something about a painting that you later implemented, would that mean you could never enter it into a competition? No. If a movie director got some good suggestions from his wife does that means he has to give back his Oscar? Not at all.

Kim,

I think it

Michele & Allen -

When I first heard this - I was in complete agreement with you. I was very hot under the collar to defend myself. But, the point that made me really chew on this last night was that it doesn't matter in a competition how I know it's my work, it is how the judges view it. I agree that artists talk all the time and a personal email about a painting wouldn't be out of bounds, but these forums are public. Right now all competition forms state that the work entered cannot be done under supervision or in a workshop. I suspect that if these forums keep multiplying they may eventually include a statement prohibiting this as well for entries.

There are extremes for every example - and taking this to an extreme - say a poster here painted a portrait and got loads of help from everyone. Really brought the painting to a finish he/she could not have done otherwise and maybe couldn't again on his/her own. Then this painting went on to win a major competition. Wouldn't that cause some questions to arise?

And none of those stone throwing colleagues did ever show their paintings to a friend or professor before deciding to join the show, or ???

Well of course not !

Allan

PS.
I believe for myself that I can see on a painting if the brush was "hold " by another. That be tracing from a photo or literally painted by another hand. Both are disgusting and should be noticed by the jury.

Allan,

I think the point that I am taking and digesting is that there wouldn't be an ethical problem with asking or receiving a friends/collegues/past professor's critique or opinion on a piece and possibly making changes. It's the 'publicness' of the forums where anyone can read that changes the rules. It could bring in people who say - "hey, it was your idea, but you changed 15 things about it because of 5 people's input."

I am not saying I agree it's right, I am saying I don't want to be accused of being wrong. Just trying to be safe instead of sorry. To me I look at it the same way I might a copyright issue - if I am not sure how others would see it - I best not do it.

This, alas, isn't so much an ethical dilemma as a situation that can conceiveably bring you in conflict with contest rules. We discussed this at length within the past year on another art forum, and a lot of people concluded that they could no longer post work for critique if they had any expectation of eventual entry in a contest. You're right, Kimberly, about competition rules against work done in a workshop or under supervision, and the conclusion of most people was that although "supervision" isn't explicitly defined, exposure to critique in a public forum in which many teachers and experts participate can easily be construed as "supervised," comments are solicited, suggestions made, and work is altered. Mind you, I'm not happy with it either, but we have to live with it.

John C.

I suppose the only way to resolve this would be to ask the organizers of three or four of the bigger competitions and see what they think.

I see the point.

That means, in fact, that if you are going to join a competition you can

Allan -

I don't see that. If you are unveiling a work it is assumed you are done. It is understood that artists get comments all the time - good and bad, but with a critique on a forum you are posting for help and comments to improve your painting.

Kim,

Think of it this way: When you post a picture on unveiling you never know how it will be accepted and you have maybe thought of sending it to a competition.

If you get a VERY positive respond you maybe feel more certain that this is OK and send it. Is

Allan -

If you get a good response - you're not going to change it are you? This isn't about competitions having a problem with 'reactions' to your work - it's about the artist getting help with the piece. Whether it is loved or hated, it is still mine. If I get comments that are geared towards getting me to fix parts of it - and then I do fix parts from someone else's guidance - then that is where a competition could have a problem with it. It is the area of ownership - who created this work.

And I think most would agree - even small changes from others critiques does not change the fact that it is your painting, but what if you run into a judge that disagrees? It is not worth taking a chance.

Kim,

When my daughter was small she was crazy with horses. She wanted to go horse riding, and did so.

I remember a situation with one other little girl, at the school, riding a horse. Suddenly she asked; Tell me, who is actually deciding where the horse is going? She was sitting on top of it !

What I mean is that you know for your self if you painted that painting. If you cheated you will know. I know that you didn't and expect to see your paintings on future exhibitions.

Allan

Allan,

No, I did not cheat. I believe changes I have made from critiques here are so minor no one could question it. I am just planning on not taking that chance in the future.

It is my belief that whenever you submit a painting to a show you should list, on the entry form, the name of each and every person who commented on your painting. If you win, everyone's name should be credited on the award itself and all cash prizes should be equally split between all commentors. Anyone commenting more than once should be entitled to additional compensation. In the spirit of non equitable generosity I am hereby waiving any compensation for making this suggestion.

Marvin -

Have I mentioned how much I like your portrait of Sylvia? (cha-ching!)
That portrait of Mr. Fishbach is OK also, I suppose. (cha-ching!)
Oh! And the one of Eric - lovely! (cha-ching!)

I don't take personal checks, but a money order would be fine. That's Kimberly, K-I-M-B-E-R-L-Y.

I owe people here ...hmmm...with the award money I have won this year...approximately .24 cents each, but Sharon I owe $1.73.

Hi Kim,
 

I understand your preoccupation about the subject, but no matter how many suggestions you get here, you decide which ones are valuable and which ones aren

Hi Kim,

I think that you're confusing the solicitation of opinion with asking for actual advice. I would argue that advice is something that you pay for; therefore, advice from, say, a workshop teacher is "advice" and other comments would be "opinion". I think that everything on the Forum constitutes "opinion", not "advice". In any event you're not compelled to take any recommendations from anybody and in many cases taking somebody's opinion would make a painting worse, not better. No artist can live in a vacuum and do great work, and nobody should expect them to.

Just thinking out loud here... just my opinion.

Under supervision
 

I sincerely believe, that they probably mean work that is being done, "under supervision" in a local mental health facility under the nervous eyes of medical professionals, as a form of art therapy, now currently in vogue.

If you are in fact happily dabbling away unchaperoned in your own studio, I would not worry too much.

As a matter of fact, Marvin told me Alicia Blue's ankles were too fat, when he saw her in Boston. I fixed them and now I have an interested client. Do you think I should give Marvin a percentage?

Sharon, at least 75% to be fair. My reasoning is as follows: what chance does a person have of standing on their own with problematic ankles? Therefore what chance is there of a painting standing on it's own with ankle problems? I'm not gonna haggle over a few percentage points. Please make it payable to "fineartportrait." No personal checks please!

It ultimately doesn't matter what we think, it's what competition organizers think. My best guess, from exposure to some of these folks, is that most of them are, surprise surprise, decent, logical, folks, but we're talking about the occasional nazi. Do you want to risk it? At the same time, do you want to ask if there's a possiblity you'll get shot down? But then, do you want to enter a contest with that kind of draconian attitude. I look at it this way, if I post for critiques it's not because I want everyone to say "wow, you have a winner," it's because I feel there's areas where I need help, which means I've already disqualified myself from entering a competition. If you have a painting that you think is a slam dunk winner, then enter the contest and post it later, possibly to ask why those so and so's didn't recognize my genius.

John C.

Wow, some people are really going to retire comfortably form this forum! ;)

Wait until Cynthia takes her percentage too!

So you get money with these prizes aye?

I totally agree with all of you! It would be utterly stupid for someone to say my paintings werent mine - or were supervised from the critiques I got here. I am not trying to be preoccupied or a stickler for rules.

The source of my information was not aiming it at me and actually told me that my changes were so small that no one could question it, but this person mentioned this as a situation that could be read as having help. This is someone who does shows and competitions and has judged them as well. If this person, as an artist feels this is an ethical/rules situation then there are probably more out there who would agree.

I think the chance of it happening is slim, and I am most-likely fine - but with the info coming on the heels of me receiving an award in a national competition...I figure its best to be safe.

Besides I can still post for a critique after a painting is done - and apply any of the abundant knowledge gained to the next piece. This will of course cut all of you out of the tremendous money-making plan of Kim-tries-competitions. I hope this doenst affect anyone's bottom line too drastically....I'd hate to think of you all going hungry. :exclamati

That's a shame, Kim, why do you think I joined this forum? I was looking forward to the money stream I would get from offering comments on your work.... ;)

Jan-

You and everyone else... man, I am sick of supporting all you bums. :o

Sorry, but I think that the notion that you can only enter pristinely unevalutated paintings that have never been seen by eyes other than the artist's, or that have never been commented on or discussed with anyone or reworked as a result of the discussion, is mystifyingly quaint.

How could a competition be set up with these guidelines, with any expectation of them being enforceable? I've juried a number of shows, and it's never occurred to me to wonder whether the works before me were produced by artists with no one looking over their shoulder. If two sets of hands touched the work, I expect to see two names on the card, but I wouldn't attempt to track down this information and verify it. It's the work I'm judging, not the artist.

The English romantic landscapist Turner would finish his paintings on site at academic competitions a couple of days before judging, so that his paintings would glow more than the others in that particular light. Okay, this was pretty scurrilous. But any expectation that the paintings be painted without anyone's feedback is cutting it impossibly fine, to my mind.

Jeez, folks, painting is hard enough, without trying to assert that the only work that is competition-worthy has to be produced in a vacuum.

Love to all--TE

Thank you, Tom Edgerton. FOR ME, this is the last word on the subject. I really don't see how anyone could disagree with what you said. I am speaking only for myself, of course.... ;)

I just thought I'd copy and paste this from another forum - it is concerning the same exact subject. The person had written and asked the Oil Painters of America if getting critiques on internet forums would disqualify the artist from competition:

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:31 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a nice letter from Kathryn Beligratis, Executive Director of OPA.
She writes, "Normally organizations sponsoring art exhibitions discourage
submission of paintings that have been created in a workshop. However, most artists do get input from family, friends and fellow artists on paintings in various stages of completion. Frequently, artists paint together, especially plein air and critique each other's work. This does not result in an unqualified painting as long as the artist has done all the work himself...If the input you receive is no different than what you might receive if a fellow artist stopped by while you were painting or was provided while painting together in a studio or plein air, then you should be comfortable submitting the painting. However, if you feel that your internet group has had a significant impact on your composition there would always be the chance that one of them could present a claim that the painting was not original."


Sounds like I might have been a little too concerned, no? :o

Kim--

Thanks for this...it's a good clarification from a good source. I appreciate your posting it.

Best--TE