Those who try to discourage us
 

I was just reading David's introduction and noted the discouraging remarks from his high school counselor about pursuing his dream as an artist. I recall a similar conversation I once had with my high school counselor who seemed to think majoring in fine art was a big waste of time. I brushed off her advice (can't even recall what it was she suggested) and pursued a degree in Fine Arts anyway. Along the way, when the subject came up of "what was your major", the reply of Fine Arts seems always to be met with the attitude that you opted for an easy pass through college, and that your parents spent a fortune for you to get a worthless degree since it wouldn't land you a "real" job. The same response I would expect if I said I majored in Basketball. or some other major league sport where only a very small percentage actually makes a living at it.

On the other hand, it may have been legitimate skepticism as it has been my minor in computer science that has provided my major source of income for these past 20 years, not art. I think we are brainwashed at a young age to think of fine art as a hobby and not as something we can actually make a living doing and structured support is severely lacking. Even as a fine arts major, there were no classes offered on the business of art, how to market or sell art - unless of course you major in business or marketing.

I am curious how many of you have met with words of discouragement while pursuing your dream of becoming a working portrait artist?

Heidi, the reason I am "self-taught", is because I was told no. I wanted to grow up and be a painter. I wanted to go to art school.
I was told that was ridiculous. So I thought that maybe if I changed that a bit and told them I wanted to be a teacher (an art teacher) that would work. NO, my mother had been a teacher and talked me out of that. I was expected to go to UNC. So, that is what I did and majored in journalism. Did I ever do anything with that major? No. I went to work for a newspaper and within 3 months the art director had seen a sketch I did on my desk, he asked how fast I could learn to use a computer because they were short handed in the art department. That was the end of my journalism career. Next thing I knew I was the graphic artist and illustrator for an arts and entertainment magazine.

So, I ended up doing what I wanted to do anyway, but always wonder where I would be had I gotten the proper training. I will NOT do that to my children.

Art careers of the past
 

I think many of us were subjected to an older paradigm about artists, and the possibility of making a living at it.

If you research through the bio-s of most of our best loved old masters, you will find that they had benefactors and wealthy supporters...... One who worked as an artist would have needed to be born into wealth or have connection to royalty or live out the starving artist fantasy.

Our consumer based economy provides many opportunities for young people to enter the art world through advertising in one way or another. Although our well meaning but old fashioned nay-sayers are behind the times, most portrait painters can tell you....it's still one in a millions (or 1/2) art students who makes a living autonomously, through Free Lance painting.

Ah Heidi, even to this day - from people I most admire.

Interesting topic!

Interesting that I saw this article on the MSN headlines this morning:

Quote from story entitled: What is your degree worth?

"Career satisfaction is key. If you like what you spend your day doing, you are more likely to succeed at your job. This could lead to faster advancement in your career even if your starting salary is modest. Conversely, if you pursue a major and a career track solely for the money, you may be headed for trouble.

Evidence shows that today's dynamic job market offers unprecedented flexibility in jumping between career tracks, and it's common not to work in the field you studied. For example, in the computer industry, which includes some of the highest-paying occupations, about two-thirds of workers did not actually major in IT or computer-related fields.

Opportunities for midcareer changes are enhanced by the proliferation of flexible and highly focused adult education programs. Online schools and universities offer alternatives ranging from single, focused courses and short certification programs to bachelor's and postgraduate degree programs.

In a sense, those who chose a major in college simply because they loved the subject, and left career questions for later, may have made a pretty smart choice. Today's job climate not only allows for professional reinvention; in many cases, job security demands flexibility and adaptation. And with higher education no longer limited to a four-year window after high school, workers can discover their interests and strengths in the 'real world,' and gain the knowledge and skills they need accordingly."

As a kid, my parents encouraged my interest in art by sending me to painting lessons, etc. ... but when it came to college, they absolutely refused to allow me to major in art (they weren't going to pay for me to become a 'starving artist'). I bought into that outlook, I guess. So I majored in Biology, and took a lot of arts electives. But after college I got married, got my MBA, and worked in business for 17 years, without ever lifting a paint brush except for 2 quick watercolors to put something on the walls back when we bought our first house.

In 2001, a new neighbor in town heard that I was an 'artist' (from a mutual friend, referring to those two watercolors and some drawings)... and on blind faith she commissioned me to do a reproduction of Cezanne's basket of apples. That led to a reproduction of Van Gogh's Irises for someone else. After that I refused to do anymore reproductions, but was back into painting as a hobby. It was those people around me who encouraged what I wanted to do and believed in me that got me started painting again -- and together with this forum, gave me the courage/confidence to turn professional last summer.

The funniest thing is that my parents, (who were the biggest obstacle to my thinking this was something I could do for a living when I was younger), couldn't be prouder and are my biggest cheerleaders now.

Survey: The value of a formal art education
 

There seems to be a common theme emerging here.

Since it is graduation time, here are some thoughts we can ponder. Perhaps our insight can help young art students who are at a cross road and struggling with decisions for their futures.

Question: Do you have a formal education in art?


If you answer Yes then,

- did you receive support for this decision from friends, family, etc., or did you pursue it in spite of a lack of support?

- are you making a decent living as an artist?

- do you work a full time job in another field and do your art on the side?

- do you now regret pursuing an art education rather than taking what others deemed the "safe " career path?

- do you think your skills are now more advanced than they would have been had you not pursued a formal education?

- have there been any instances in your career where having a degree in art has directly benefited you (e.g., gotten you a posh commission, gotten you into a high caliber show or gallery, etc.) that you wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise? Along those same lines, has having a degree directly helped you sell a piece of work?

- do you rely on your spouse for the majority of your financial support? If so, has that diminished your sense of self worth?


If you answered No then,

- did you want to pursue a formal education in art but succumbed to pressured against it?

- do you regret not pursuing a formal art education?

- are you working in the field for which you majored?

- did you not have a desire to pursue art as a career, but developed it later in life?

- did you not have the financial means to go to college at all?

- do you plan on going back to school?

- do you now attend artist workshops to make up for what you feel you missed out on in school?

- do you think a formal art education is somewhat worthless and everything you need to know to succeed can be gained by practical experience, practice, and networking with other artists?

Perhaps someone could set up a poll..

Reply to survey
 

Interesting to see what the survey will show. Here's my contribution:

I went to art school, but limiting myself by my own insecurities, majored in graphic design instead of fine art. The good thing is that Ringling School of Art insisted on many drawing and painting classes, so I got a good foundation in the basics.

I became a graphic artist and worked in that field thirteen years. Taught a few art classes too.

To any people out there considering art school - it's great for learning a lot in a little time. Just make sure the school emphasizes drawing skills.

more info
 

Oops - didn't answer all the questions.

- did you receive support for this decision from friends, family, etc., or did you pursue it in spite of a lack of support? My parents made sure I had art classes from age 8 on. They were a "mixed" support - very little verbal support, but the finances were there to help me.

- are you making a decent living as an artist? No

- do you work a full time job in another field and do your art on the side? I am a full time speech therapist, and am pursuing portraiture/painting on the side - for now.

- do you now regret pursuing an art education rather than taking what others deemed the "safe " career path? No - I only wish I had dived into fine art.

- do you think your skills are now more advanced than they would have been had you not pursued a formal education? Yes.

- have there been any instances in your career where having a degree in art has directly benefited you (e.g., gotten you a posh commission, gotten you into a high caliber show or gallery, etc.) that you wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise? Along those same lines, has having a degree directly helped you sell a piece of work? No - I really don't think a degree would matter for anything but teaching credentials.

- do you rely on your spouse for the majority of your financial support?
I wish! Nope, divorced and paying my own way.

Polls online
 

Feel free to verbalize your responses to the above survey here. There are now two polls available in this section entitled "The value of a formal art education" that you can answer so that we can view the answers statistically as a group percentage.
http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=4447
http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=4448

While I had some interest in art when I was young, I had no interest in pursuing a formal art education or in pursuing art as a career. There were several majors I would have selected ahead of art. No one discouraged me about studying art; I just had other interests ahead of it.

I got my bachelor's degree in chemistry, and over the years I've gotten two master's degrees in other fields. I wound up working for most of my career in engineering, and worked as an engineer for 15 years before ever taking an engineering class.

For many years, the only art I did was some pencil drawings. I had not painted since painting with poster paints in high school. A friend of mine encouraged me to try painting, and in February of last year I painted my first oil painting. I found that I liked it a lot, and am now seriously interested in becoming a professional portrait painter.

I do not regret working in other fields, as I found them interesting and rewarding, and they satisfied other interests that I have had. For me, art and other fields are not an either/or, but rather a both/and situation; i.e. I want it all.

Ah, a true Renaissance man!

Well, this brings up some very nasty memories, and maybe it's time to write them down. My story may benefit someone else in a similar situation.

I was a big fish in a small pond, won every art award available and made all my plans to attend the Art Institute of Chicago. There seemed to be no problem as far as my father was concerned. Unfortunately I was unaware that my goal in life was to become a corporate wife, and my father had trained me well. I could mix a perfect martini by the time I was 15. When the time came to solidify and submit to the Art Institute I was told NO, and I rebelled. Left home and supported myself and attended a small community college. I tried to get scholarships or loans, but was told that my father made too much money and since I was under 21 was still technically under his big umbrella. I tried to get emanicipated and again my father refused to sign any papers stating that I was self-supporting. I finally gave up on any art schooling, had to make enough money to live, but I never went back to my father. Some day I may forgive him, but not yet. When he died many years ago I gave him a private send off.

I've done many other things since then, but have never been a corporate wife. I've missed the art so badly, and now am so glad to be back to it. My current husband supports me totally and is my angel on my shoulder. When I started back painting three years ago I never thought I would come so far so fast, and I credit this forum for it all.

It's possible that my life experiences have made me a better artist, but sometimes I really wish that I had been able to find a way to incorporate formal art more into my life. When looking back I do realize that I was compelled to be creative though, and it sometimes got me in trouble (I could write a book)!

For anyone else who is in a similar situation I say, find a way to fight for what you need to do, and if you get roadblocks charge through them.

Recently I saw my stepmother and showed her my portfolio, she started crying and stated, "Your father would be so proud, and your mother too." This was the first time she ever made any reference to my mother (she died when I was 15 after a long illness). That felt really good.

Jean

I didnt see an answer that fit my situation, so here is my comments:

I always drew and painted since I was a small child. I won awards in school and was in demand in my small town in NH. I always knew I'd be an artist and everyone around me was supportive of it.

I moved out at 17 for other reasons, but because of that it was easy to get student loans (not that my mother had any money - she was a waitress). I went to a close by University and they had some great instructors. I learned some basics, but was majoring in Art Education since I didnt know if I had what it took to be a fine artist. I soon saw I was one of the top students (and certainly the top at realism) - and I changed my degree to BFA. Alas - I only went for a year and a half before I got married. I was going to go back, but soon found my husband made too much money on paper to get any loans.

My mother, not a stupid woman, but lacking in formal education beyond high school was insistant I could not go to college since there was no money. She had no problem with me wanting to be an artist (she has always been in awe of my talent) - the thing she was shocked about was student loans - she never knew they existed. Onc I got them, she was extrememly proud.

Luckily I started working as a sales clerk in a gallery and they took my paintings and sold them one after the other for a few years. In those days I did still lifes only - I had never painted an interior or a portrait - it seems I only dared do fruit and flowers!

I do not know if finishing my degree would have helped me - but if I wanted to go back to school I would go to an classical realist school/atlier - not a University. I wish I had known about them back then!

Hi,
I do not know which form to fill in, because I actually went to a bigger Academy for almost two years where I had some valuable training in drawing from live and plaster, as well as in sculpture.

But my main interest was painting in oils and I do not feel that I got any valuable input or challenges in that field. What I have achieved, I did on my own, by studying old masters, landscapes and portraits.

I feel that I did not get any degree in traditional painting because that the trend at that time ( 1970 - 71 ) was to sit down and watch the grass grow. Nobody dared to expect anything from you. So eventually I gave it all up.

Nowadays it is different, though it is still regarded "Finer Art" if combined with aerobic.

Traditional portraiture, and waltzing, is still a niche, but we will see what we can do.


Allan

I feel incredibly spoiled after reading some of the posts in this thread. I have chosen art as my future career since I was 8 years old, and my parents have backed me up %100 - They even beg to pay for my art supplies.

If suffering is a requirement of becoming a great artist, I don't have a chance.

M.

Patience, there will be other opportunities for suffering. Do you presently have a girlfriend?

Hahahahaha, no I havent. (not officially)

Are you insinuating that girlfriends promote depression?.......don't answer that. :sunnysmil

Heidi, I am glad you started this thread. I am now able to see that my situation was not very isolated. Maybe I should have been more 'rebellious' against the advice of my counsellors and parents and listened to my art teachers, however, I think the underlying message I am seeing from everyone is to follow your passion for art no matter which road one takes or however long it may take. I basically came to the conclusion (only recently) that I should '**** the torpedoes' and do it. How many times have you heard someone tell you that you really couldn't make a living as an artist? Well I heard it a lot from many people, and only now, with age, do I realize that those people were ignorant. As far as education and formal training is concerned, I can only say that it is always more beneficial to have as much knowledge as possible, regardless if you use it or not. I have a degree in Labour Relations that has, to date, been useless as a career, but the has offered me knowledge that carries forth into other areas of life. At this point, I think I am beyond the allure academia and would rather take workshops and receive tidbits of advice from experienced artists. The struggle continues.

David

In reading the replies here, it's easy to see that everyone has a different story with regard to the trials and tribulations of living the life of an artist.

No one (except Matthew, who admitted to it - and God bless you, Matthew!), has had it easy. There will always be lean times, detractors, and plain old artist's block. None of us are immune to these things. At these times, we feel very alone: I think I should hang it up for good - I'm not getting anywhere. I know I've thought this thought a few times.

I funded my own art training, and I'm still paying for it after graduating 11 years ago. I can't say I regret it, though. It was a fortunate thing that I found Marvin Mattelson. Of course, as encouraging as he was, he had other charges besides me. He couldn't replace my discouraging family, nor the poor environment that was fostered by it.

Despite that, I stuck with it. It has still yet to become a career, though I have made some money over the years. I got married, and my wife became the breadwinner. We had children. Things are now more difficult. That terrible thought (above) comes to mind again. The irony, and perhaps even saving grace is that it may be too late to quit. After illustrating, painting and drawing over the past 11 years, I have no other work history. What else would I do? What else CAN I do? I'm not qualified for anything else.

I still get the odd portrait commission, the once-in-awhile gallery show (with a rare sale), the every-so-often teaching gig. When these things happen, I feel like things might turn the corner. I feel truly happy, even if it is for a fleeting few days of optimism.

Of all the people who graduated in my class, I know of two who are painting. One is myself. The other is a very close friend of mine (why wouldn't he be, actually?) named Sean Beavers. We are both big fans of one another's work. Sean is moderately successful, but is destined for really big things in the near future. He is single, and his "non-art" obligations are fewer. More than that, his parents are huge champions of his career, and have been from the beginning.

I take note of that last sentence particularly. Not to pit it against my past, but rather as a lesson to be applied to the future. As I've said, I have children. Whatever they might do, I know now that their success hinges on my encouragement; not my wallet, not my aloof indifference, but by my sincere willingness to get behind their interests.

My oldest, a 6-year-old girl, knows that her daddy is an artist. Would I be doing her any favors in giving it up to (try) and get a "safe" job with "safe" money? The only thing she'd learn from that is: Don't pursue your dream, rather, sacrifice it in the name of (what we think is) security. Even her childlike mind knows what giving up means. She wouldn't be able to ride a bike if I didn't encourage her to get up off the ground and try again. Through tears from skinned knees, she did it - and the tears gave way to pure joy. I guess daddy needs to get up again, too.

Actually, Marvin told me something that bears quoting here (though I'm sure I'm paraphrasing): "The day you give up, the very next day might be the day of your big break."

Sounds like you already know what to do now. And we can be your cheering section.

Learn from history:

Soviet leaders generally doubted the CCP's ability to win. In spite
of the fact that the GMD insistently took a pro-American stand as the
Cold War intensified, the Soviet Union remained neutral in the CCP-GMD
conflict. Stalin even pressured the CCP to compromise with the GMD, and
Soviet media kept a strange silence as CCP forces won a series of
crucial military victories. Gordon Chang, Friends and Enemies: The
United States, China, and the Soviet Union, 1948-1972, Stanford
University Press, 1990, 28. Several Chinese sources point out that in early
1949, Stalin advised Mao and the CCP leadership not to cross the Yangzi
River to avert triggering a direct Soviet-American confrontation.

For many of us, we are facing the same issue: cross river.

Indirect route for me too
 

Reading through these posts has made me realize that my route to art has not been so unusual. I loved drawing and painting since I was a small child. When it came time to go to college, I chose the University of Texas and to please myself and my parents, chose classes to become a medical illustrator. That way, I could take drawing classes and then apply that along with biology with a plan for an actual paying job. (That was the plan.)

After one semester as an art/biology major I decided that wasn't for me. Too much memorizing in biology. And my art teachers . . . I would spend 4 hours on a pencil drawing and get a 'C' for a grade. One day I didn't do my homework assignment so right before class started, I knelt down and draw 3 black lines on my pad of drawing paper. One very thick line horizontally and two thinner lines at each end vertically. That particular teacher kept me after class to discuss the 'meaning' of my art. That was it for me! I couldn't take any more of that, though I did make up some story about the meaning of that drawing and got an 'A' for it.

I decided art was too subjective so I went into engineering where the harder you worked, the better grade you got. Plus, no memorizing, with all that math I could figure out the answer by calculating the answer. I eventually graduated with a petroleum engineering degree and went to work for Shell as an engineer.

After 4 years of that, and I was not happy as an engineer after the initial year of the 'newness' of the job wore off, I went back to school and took some illustration and marketing courses. My sweet grandmother supported me for a year and enabled me to do that.

I worked for a graphic design company for a couple of years then started freelancing graphic design. Got married, had 2 kids and 10 years later became interested in portraiture. My husband, who works for Shell (met him when I was an engineer - an office romance that turned out very well!) was transferred to Holland for 2 years and I was lucky enough to be able to take classes from a wonderful Dutch portrait artist. I also took some other classes in Holland from an art college and other smaller groups. It was worth it to fight the wind and rain and cold to make it to those classes, I now realize.

Now that we are back in Houston I have exhausted portraiture classes and now look entirely to this forum for any help. And I'm saving for some workshops, though my husband would love to see some 'income' from my attempts before I go off to a workshop!

So, that is my circuitous route back to art. Mary, I'm with you, I will not do this to my children. I'll support whatever they want to do from the start (within reason, ha!).

Joan

Stalin didn't believe CCP would win.
He apologized.

First, to the surprise and satisfaction of Liu and his
comrades, Stalin apologized for failing to give sufficient assistance to the
CCP during the civil war. According to Shi Zhe's recollection, Stalin
asked Liu in the second meeting: "Have we disturbed you [in China's civil
war]?" Liu replied: "No!" Stalin answered: "Yes, we have been in the
way of hindrance to you because our knowledge about China is too
limited."

Your friend, (oh, is he)? may not apologize, because:
He still doesn't know your potential.
Or, he is egocentric.

This might sound weird, but I

When I was growing up I was interested in both writing and art as careers. Whether it was because of subtle influences from my family or my own practicality, I decided that neither could ensure me a steady paycheck if I needed one - and I doubt if it was because of my parents since my mother never worked. So I chose first French (same objection) and then psychology as my major in college, went on for a Master's degree, and spent my professional career working mostly with children in various settings. I found my jobs interesting and stimulating and am glad I spent my time that way, but am now equally happy to be able to turn my attention to art as a second career. I had no formal training but occasionally take workshops; I read magazines and also interact with other artists online and in our community. Talking to other artists, for me, is the best way to keep my mind and techniques sharp and be aware of new ideas and opportunities. I don't know how well that would work for others but for me it's been fine. My art income is a nice supplement, although it wouldn't be sufficient to feed and clothe us, and I also have a waiting list, so I'm happy.

My family encouraged me, but they wanted me to go into teaching. They wouldn't pay for an art college, but that's what I wanted and I managed to get a full scholarship so they allowed it. The weirdest thing about my undergraduate education (this was a long time ago, but it still disturbs me) was that I was totally ignored by some male professors. They wouldn't critique my work. One told me it was a waste of his time since I was just going to get married and have babies. It was almost impossible for a female to be regarded seriously unless she acquired a well-known mentor.

I kept my studio alive, barely, and made money with other jobs. I learned to be content painting for myself.

After a life filled with the usual ~ craziness, love, and hard knocks ~ I decided to continue my art education. There are a lot of MFA programs out there today, but the top programs are expensive and harder to get into than Harvard Business school which accepts 10% of applicants. Highly rated MFA programs accept less than 7% of applicants, sometimes less than 4%. The whole enchilada was a revelation to me.

I wasn't accepted at first, it took two tries. I attended Maryland Institute College of Art (MICA) and found every kind of art is respected and figurative art is encouraged.

I feel it doesn't diminish portrait artists to learn that abstract expressionism was a response to the horrors of WWII, or surrealism began as a mining of the unconscious, or to become familiar with modern conceptual portraiture. Art is my love, so I want to know as much as possible. I consider painting similar to any other profession out there, having an evolving history, a specialized vocabulary, and an increasingly technical basis. I wouldn't begin to think I could understand physics without a knowledge of basic math, and art today, including some portraiture, has reached a similar level of complexity.

Now, is all that required to paint a wonderful painting/portrait? No.

Is it better to go the academic route than specialized portrait courses? I think it is just a different path to an end. We are artists because we engage in the practice of art. As we practice art, we learn what we need and where to obtain it.

Now, has it helped me ? Yes, being part of that community was/is wonderful. I try to maintain contact with many of the artists I met at school and we share information about exhibiting opportunities and commissions.

An artist follows his/her interests to continue to grow. I will try to share here - and, in turn, learn from you - the excellent portraitists who followed their own paths. It feels like completing a circle.