Say it right
 

The other day a noted gallery owner mispronounced a name. There are several artists that get mispronounced so often that I'm no longer sure myself. This guy said Henri as a French first name. I've always heard that Henri was an American that assumed his name after his father was convicted of murder and that HE always wanted it pronounced Hen-rie, not "on ree"

The other is Ingres. The French tell me it's 2 (not one, syllable), very soft second...ong-grah.

Van Gogh sounds pretty nasty when said right and always sounds like putting on airs when said true to the Dutch. When is correct right?

Tim: Understand completely what you mean. My biggie is Bouguereau.

I have heard it pronounced:

"Boo-jer-oh"
"Booj-row"
"Bu-jer-o"
"Boo-garo"
"Boo-ger-ew"
"Bo-ger-o"
"Bo-ger-ew"

To this day, I don't really know the correct pronounciation having had several conflicting ways of saying it from people who "should know". I think it is "Booj-row"

Being one who was blessed with a French name while living in the USA, I would like to add that the what is accepted as the proper pronunciation has a lot to do with where you're from or where you are at the time.

I say my name as my relatives in Montreal pronounce it, with the "ier" pronounced as "a". And my first name pronounced more like Michelle then the Anglo Michael (with the ch pronounced like a k) But many Fournier's (which is a much more common name then you would think) pronounce it like Four-ni-err it drives me nuts. A lot of people think I am being pretentious just because I use the French pronunciation of my name. I even grew up with teachers trying to correct me I would say my name as Michelle Fourn-a and they would say you mean Mi"K"ael Four-ni-err; after a while I just gave up. Also Pelletier is another French name that many here in the US do not pronounce correctly. But the same people will pronounce Mark Mesier's name just fine and they all pronounce "Cartier" correct as well. I always joke I guess you have to win a Stanley Cup or be a jeweler to get your name pronounced correctly.

Well at least when I visit relatives in Canada, I get to hear my name correctly. But since my family did not speak French at home (only my father is French) I never learned much beyond how to say my name, and the swears my father would mutter when he hit his thumb with a hammer or something. Also I always knew I was in trouble when I heard my dad yell my full name in French followed by a bunch more French I did not need to understand to know the meaning of.

If you are French the o sound at the end is just "o" (rather truncated sounding) not like "ooh" as some might say. It's not easy to really say French names correctly with a American English accent - you start to sound like you are imitating Peter Sellers as inspector Clouseau. (another name with that "eau" at the end. :)

Michael,

What an enjoyable note! Although my silent pronunciation of your last name was correct, I admit I had been thinking the hard "k" in Michael.

French pronunciation, I believe, of the "g" depends upon what follows it. The 'g' is soft (zhe sound) when followed by an "e", for example, Jean-Leon Gerome. However the "g" becomes a hard "g" when followed by a "u" as in "guerre" (the French word for war), or as in Bouguereau.

I had prounced Bouguereau's name wrong for years, and an artist friend and I got into a discussion about hard and soft "g"s. Then she pointed out that I had been spelling it wrong all along, without the second "u".

Au revoir.

G or j
 

Chris,

I have heard the name Bouguereau both ways, but I think you might be correct. But I can only go by what I have heard. Just because my relatives are French, it does not mean I or they are pronouncing every word correctly.

After all French is just like English or any other language: how you pronounce words has a lot to do with where you are from and how educated your parents were. We all learn most of our speech from what we grow up hearing. After all, we all have heard people mispronounce words who are very educated themselves. Here in Massachusetts idea always seems to get a "r" added at the end. Maybe it's where all the "r's" go that the Bostonians don't use.

So it's boug-er-o (hard g) right? Now what of Henri?

A friend of mine once pointed out that if your name is spelled Bill and you say it's pronounced Sam then it is pronounced Sam.

I read years ago that Henri wanted his name pronounced Hen-rie. Anyone else heard that?

This thread seems to have come at the right time for me. I picked up a book on Bouguereau the other day, but I don't know that I've ever heard his name said by anyone else. I stumble over it every time. I guess I know now!

On a side note, everyone always asks me about my last name. It's my married name. For anyone who has not seen it before, they would never be able to pronounce it correctly. Meierotto pronounced my-row-tee. It sounds Italian when said, but it is actually German. This can be seen when broken down into 'meier' and 'otto', which are both common in German names. The other day on the news, they had the first person in Iowa to contract the West Nile Virus - a man with my last name, but not directly related. I couldn't believe that all of the newspeople actually managed to say it and spell it correctly!

Here is one that I have mispronounced for years, CHIAOSCURO. My good friend Aurora at the other forum helped me out on this one. must have been her italian heritage! key-ah-ro-skooro The single o's are long. The double oo's are like the oo's in cool.....L

I always thought is was "ker-ezs-scue-roe"

Well, Tim, unless we actually know if this is true, I would pronounce it on-ree based on spelling and heritage; but I suppose if Prince (He is now back to Prince and not the artist formally know as stuff) could have a symbol with no audible pronunciation at all as a name then Henri can be Hen-rie. :)

Tim,

Spanish I have a handle on, and Italian is not too far off, with many words that are very similiar, but starting this off with a ker sounds like your beginning post and statement Tim, it is most accurately, key-ah!

L

Steve Martin used to have a similar problem ("Cheese is 'fromage'. Egg is 'oeuf'. It's like those French have a DIFFERENT word for EVERYTHING!)

Pity the shy persons of the world who only want a 'venti' size latte and a tuna 'focaccia', but just can't risk the hazard of choking on those words.

(How do you say 'venti', anyway, and what would you do with a quart of coffee?)

I've just reviewed a super still-life video from the very "painterly" Gregg Kreutz (both the video and his book, "Problem Solving for Oil Painters", are incredible), and his pronunciation of "chiaroscuro" (there's another "r" between the "a" and the first "o") accords with Leo's.

It is my recollection from some traumatic French study a long time ago that indeed the "u" after the "g" in Bouguereau gives it a hard "g" sound. The confusion is likely due to frequent misspellings omitting the "u".

I believe, too, that Henri threw his hands up in frustration and went by the name "Hank" during the latter part of his career.

Henri
 

Yes, but Hank was pronounced "hunk"- so it never ends.

Would not Michael be pronounced with a hard "c" when spelled that way, but in the French manner when spelled "Michel"?

As a former French major, I tend to pronounce French words correctly when speaking English, but leave out or minimize the French accent to avoid sounding too pretentious.

Yes, Leslie I know that. It's a long story, but it involves the US Army, and the fact that once entered on an official US Government document, it seems to take an act of Congress to correct. Also, no one seemed to get that Michel was a boy's name pronounced as Michelle, they just thought I spelled it wrong and changed it back, or called me Michael (with a hard c) anyway. That is how it got to Michael. But I don't mind so much to be called Michael with a hard c, but I hate the way my last name sounds when Americanized, especially when they hang on the r and pronounce it like Four-ni-errrr.

Besides, Michael is from St. Michael, and heck, who knows, I could use a saint watching over me from time to time. :)

I'd thought it best not to mention this earlier, but it's actually worse than you think, Tim. At the time of the name change, he had enjoyed several servings of an imported beer popular in the U.S., and he adapted its name, thus creating a "Haanke" spelling. Thereafter debate raged as to whether he was "Honk" or "Honk-eh". Indeed it never does end.

(Not in this Forum, anyway!)

Yes, you're right. But unless your French is very good (and mine is not) when you speak to a Frenchman/woman, they always correct you unless you use the correct accent. Always trying to be helpful of course. :)

Even simple conversation can be a problem. Goes like this: I say "allons mangent" (Let's go eat) then they repeat it. And I say "Est-ce ce que j'ai dit" (this is what I said) then they say "Oh aucun vous pas" (oh no, you didn't). It usually ends in me saying it in English or I starve and spend the rest of the evening working on my French. I also have problems with plural vs. singular and tense. Example: "all

Dear All,

I love exercises like this - attempting to transcribe correct sounds using words and phonetics that are understood by everyone. So, allow me to wade in with some confirmation on the pronunciations of things suggested thus far. (For what it's worth, besides English, I speak and read Spanish well, and I speak and read both Italian and French well enough to get me into trouble.)

Bouguereau: the hard "g" is correct. Boo-geh (as in "get")-roh. Chris's explanation was comprehensive. French is officially unaccented, so each syllable gets equal emphasis.

chiaroscuro: hard "c". kya-ro-SKOO-ro. In Italian, a "c" followed by an "i" or an "e" is normally soft and sounds like our "ch" in "church". But, when followed first by an "h" it makes it a hard "c". Otherwise, since they don't use the "k", there is no way to write the hard "c" sound prior to an "i" or "e". By the way, for those who wish to know, the literal translation of chiaroscuro is "lightdark".

Robert Henri: I've always heard it pronounced Hen-rye, too. But, I have no knowledge as to why this is so. The reasons put forth sound good to me.

Here's a few other ones of interest to - well - me:

Imprimitura: eem-pree-mee-TOO-rah. Just as many seem to get this wrong as they do right, perhaps even more. It is frequently misspelt as imprimatura. That middle "a" should be an "i". The plural is imprimiture (eem-pree-mee-TOO-ray). Using the "ray" for the Italian long "e" is not quite precise, but it's the closest we can come in English writing.

Giotto, Giambattista, Ghiberti
In Italian, the "g" follows similar rules as does the "c". That is, a "g" followed by an "i" or "e" is soft and pronouced like the "g" in the English "gel". However, when you want a soft "g" before an "o" or an "a", which isn't normally possible, you must insert an "i" which is more-or-less silent. Thus Giotto is NOT Gee (as in "gee-whiz")-otto, but rather Jotto. (Linger on the double "t" just a split second longer, will ya?) And, Giambattista is Jambattista, as in jambalaya. To make a hard "g" before an "i" or "e", in Italian you insert an "h". So, Ghiberti sounds like Gee (like the "gi" in Yogi) -BEAR (again, as in "Yogi the--") -tee.

And here's two more for all of you fun-loving pedantics out there: it's broo-SKET-tah, not broo-SHEHdah for bruschetta. The "h" makes for a hard "c". As strange as it may sound to the non-Italian waiter in your local non-Italian Trattoria, it is correct. And, oh yes, it's trat-tor-REE-ah, not tra-TOR-eeyah.

Now, let's get back to work. :)

All the best,

Juan

Michael (Michel?), there's also a very significant difference between Canadian and Parisian French; we have a lot of Canadians vacationing down here at the shore so we often hear the former, and our sailing club at a nearby lake has a lot of French members who have come over, with their families, as executives in the local glass companies. The French are quite disdainful of Canadian French, being such purists, as you suggest! ;) I once worked with a French fellow and tried to practice on him, and of course he couldn't tolerate it. The French people at the sailing club are fine about it but we rapidly lapse back to English because my conversational French is so rusty.

We had a French adolescent staying with us for a month when my kids were young teenagers and it was a nightmare. The kid was a real behavior problem, put salt in a cake I was making, and broke both our toilets, but because he refused to speak English (which was supposed to be the point of the cultural exchange, of course) my French really got good for that period. I've always had a good accent - which doesn't mean I always know how to pronounce the words. But a high point was the time that a French guest of one of our resident French colony came paddling up to me at the lake and asked, "Quelle heure est-il?" and after I told him the correct time in French he asked what part of France I hailed from. Wow! I could rest on those laurels for a long time... Another time I was sitting in a group of local French people , following their conversation and making occasional comments, when one of the women suddenly looked at me in surprise and said in French, "But you're speaking French!" I don't think she had realized before that that I could, so that was fun, although the attitude was almost akin to the amazement that would be engendered by suddenly realizing that a dog was addressing you in human speech. Still, I certainly couldn't sustain it for any length without lots more practice.

Otherwise the French seem determined to shame us into speaking English because we can't possibly approach their standards. Seems to be your experience, non?

...from a chef, heartfelt thanks for educating the artistic masses regarding bruschetta. Now if you could just get the gringos to make it correctly - char bread, rub with clove of raw garlic, drizzle with good olive oil.

Question:
How do you pronounce "Steinke" (Bettina Steinke)?

Juan, how's your Greek? I've always been told that "gyro" is pronounced "YEE-ro" but little waitresses in Greek restaurants don't seem to have heard that. Thanks for the tip on "bruschetta;" despite my Italian last name (it's my husband's, not my maiden name) I was guilty of saying "bru-SHET-a. "

And you can imagine how much trouble we have with the silent "g" in our last name!

Salut!

Leslie: I just happened to work at a Greek Restaurant during High School.

It's "YEE-ro". If you were greek, you might put a bit of an H in there as in "YEAH-RO"

While we're on the topic of French names, can anyone guess how to pronouncethe name of tthe French illustrator Guy Billout? Back in my School of Visual Arts days I learned it, and never forgot. I'll give you a couple of days on it.

Ghee Bee-yo? (Hard "g')

Leslie,

I haven't been in grammar school for quite awhile, so I can't remember which is a hard and soft "G". However, the way I learned his name was when he entered my classroom and introduced himself as Gee (as in GET) Bee (as in our bumbling insect) and You (as in not me). :thumbsup:

Getting a little more exact on the Greek sandwich, it's actually yee-ros.

Bettina Steinke
 

Mari,

Stein - key.

Bettina never gave us any trouble when we said it that way.

Bill

Seventeen years ago I married an Italian by the name of Frank Ciallelo. The good thing is that I can use my name without worrying that someone else will have it. The bad thing is that no one can pronounce it. The correct pronounciation is Chill-lello. The Ci sounds like Ch in English, Like the word "ciao", as in "ciao baby".

Pronounced "chow" in English. I still get tongue tied when someone asks me what my name is, Chill-lello is hard for me to say correctly. And sometimes people say Linder instead of Linda.

But, before I was a Ciallelo, I was a Vredenburgh for 18 years, before I was a Vredenburgh, I was a Rockwell for 18 years. Life is strange. :)

Linda, having gone from Pastor to Ficcaglia you have my sympathies! Try pronouncing that one (it's Fi-KAL-ya). I tried to keep my maiden name after I married but my new boss didn't approve and insisted on introducing me to everyone as Mrs. Ficcaglia, so I gave up. Back then keeping one's maiden name was unusual, but even now, a friend who retained her name after marriage was forced to bring her marriage certificate to prove the relationship during some sort of legal contract they were embarking on as a couple!

Leslie, my daughter tried to hyphenate her maiden name with her husbands name, but had so many problems that she gave up. Changing traditions can be tricky. :)

A Gyro by any other name . . .
 

I don't claim to speak Greek, but then, who does? Except for the Greeks, of course. But, I once did know a number of Greek people and I believe that "yee-ros" is correct except that you should have a little bit of phlegm in the back of your throat when you say the "yee". Just a little, mind you. (In Greek, I believe there is also a "y" sound, as in "Yanni" (which is "John" in Greek) and it should be distinguishable from the "gy" in "gyro". That's my theory, anyway.) Or, at least, that you've got just a little something or other caught in your throat when you say it. Same goes for the "gli" in Italian.

Now, let's try to explain to a non-English speaker why "phlegm" is pronounced the way it is. :)

Best to all.

Juan

By the way: despite my obviously non-English name, I am definitely an English speaker. :)

Juan

While we're discussing it, "mediums" has never been, is not now, nor (hopefully) ever will be the plural of medium. It's "media."

The only time you will ever see "mediums" is when a crowd of them are reading your palm.

I know this officially makes me a pedantic crank, but there are too many of us using the terms not to get them right.

I don't recall having seen the plural as "media" in this context so I assumed that it took the same added "s" as the crystal-gazers. Checking Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary, the plural of medium is given as, first, mediums and second, media, which indicates that the simple addition of the s is currently the preferred form.

The only definitions for which this source cites "media" as the plural are "a channel or system of communication, information, or entertainment" and "a nutrient system for the artificial cultivation of cell or organisms, esp. bacteria."

My art library's in my studio so I don't have it handy for checking, but I suspect this may create a lively debate. And who can blame people for saying "mediums" when even major dictionaries promote that usage?

I do not mix my paint with media. I use one of the available "mediums." Of course I use it as it comes from the tube with no medium most of the time. :)

Media-tion

Talk about divided loyalties. It's been over 30 years since Latin, but I can still rattle off those endings for all the noun declensions, male, feminine, and neuter, which is both a blessing and a curse. What an orderly, logical, beautiful language, and no wonder it underlies what we know as the Romance languages (one of which we're communicating in right now). [I know -- misplaced preposition. That's a different thread, and also the subject of some funny jokes.]

But times change and language evolves. When I hear that there (are?) media in my studio, I half expect to be greeted by Ted Koppel investigating, perhaps, the great painting-from-projections scandal.

A further complication is our use of "medium" in at least two senses in the studio. "Medium" indicates the nature of our pigmented material, reflecting the way those pigments are bound. So we ask artists what medium they work in, and they say oils, or watercolors, or pastels. The usage I've most often seen in this sense is to refer to those various materials as painting "media". (In the same vein, we speak of "mixed media".)

"Medium" also refers to the materials we add to those painting media to disperse them, or dry them, or make them flow more easily. Arguably inconsistent is again the usage I find more prevalent, to refer to the plural of those materials as "mediums". At the very least, this keeps Mr. Koppel's nose out of my private methodologies. And if I refer to the properties "of" (genitive case) those materials, I don't have to wretch over whether "mediorum" is indicated.

I don't have any trouble saying "radii" or even "octopi", but that's just because I can never sort out whether to double the final "s" before adding the suffix. But I wouldn't want to see a sportswriter commenting on various cities' debates on building new stadia (or worse, stadii) for their teams. Whether that's reasonable I leave to the foci groups.

As for those palm-reading mediums, no way, under any declension. I don't harbor deep dark personal secrets (such as affection for Latin) for nothing.

I thought the medium was the message.

I stumble on "Giclee." How on earth do you say that one?

Steve, LOL.

And the media is/are the messenger/s.

Now that that's settled, what are we going to do about "hopefully"?