Sorry to show up late to this discussion. Paul, was that from the Vasari website? I say this because I have both the Dutch Yellow and the true Naples from that company and I like them both.

Sharon, I agree with you about Vermillion (I have Michael Harding's on my palette) - much easier to control than Cad Red Light.

I think a lot of contemporary figurative colorists have pumped up the chroma on their palettes because they frequently use warm artificial lights in studio setups (I'm thinking of Robert Liberace and Jeff Watts at the moment).

Linda you could be right about the lighting, but I think it's also a kind of "who you hang with" thing. I am not sure what kind of light Shanks uses but Ii do know Rob is very tight with him. Marvin uses artificial and his palette all earth. Funny huh?

Sharon most people are ... "yikes, what color does that make?" with Liberace's palette. The first time I learned it we had a very olive skin colored model with both natural and artifical light hitting him. I keep saying there was no way, but it becomes a mindset of seeing and pulling the color to make it better, not just what's there - granted you have to like the colors! ;)

When I think of your dancers I think the color is so vibrant and full of life that it shows - if you have 10 colors or 20, it's how all really about understanding the relationship of each to another to get the most bang for the palette. You are so good at this!

Well, I think it is all a matter of observing the live model. At least for me, if I just look (a lot) it is easier to see color.

Richard, that's an interesting way to approach it. I will give it a try. My only problem with it is that I don't believe I've ever seen a neutral grey in nature. But I can certainly see the point in terms of working from value first and THEN looking at colour. I currently work with colour and value at the same time, in a way I feel that they're indivisible. But of course I won't know for sure about that until I've tried the 'relative value' approach too. I think I'll try it by trying to paint the same subject three times in different keys, high, medium and low.

I must admit it goes against the grain a bit for me, but I do believe in being open minded about these things and certainly wouldn't dismiss it without trying it first.

Yes Linda, it was the Vasari site. I think I just ran a search on google for 'naples yellow' and that site came up. I was quite relieved not to see any mention of the urine of cows fed on mangoes...

Hear hear. Especially the 'a lot' part. I also find it helps to cross my eyes slightly to blur what I'm looking at and thereby get an overall impression of the colour. Otherwise I tend to get too tied up in minute modulations and miss the big picture.

Of course I'm quite aware that for many painters, colour is a personal thing, a method of expression, and they may not be trying to match the colours they see. For me, colour defines light, matching the colours in nature is an important part of learning to see.

Speaking of jumping in late...! I started reading this thread before it really took off, and since my palette is by no means limited (nor do I have any immediate plans to limit it) I felt I had not much to say on the subject.

But I've been reading all this with interest, and it occurs to me that we've all whittled down our palettes to serve us well. Not that we don't ever change--I'm always interested in trying a new color--but only time will tell whether I continue using the new color, replace an old color with a new one, or stop using it and go back to the old color.

You were talking about high chroma colors. I was looking at the new newsletter from PSoA and the article on Jacob Collins. Though I admire the restrained colors in his work, I realize that his palette (or maybe his way of using the colors on his palette) would not work for me because I basically see color in a totally different way. And the way I see color is consistent across the board for portraits and landscapes. I do a lot of both genre, and my palette is a result of what works for both. High chroma colors work for me for two reasons.

One reason is that, when complementaries are mixed together, they make neutrals that can be as dark or as light as I need.

The other reason is that I try to find (and this is an ongoing process) colors that are the most versatile. For instance, thalo green is in some ways the most annoying color in existence. But it (and thalo blue) mixed with tons of white makes in my opinion the best light-filled sky color near the horizon, and also an excellent dark green (when mixed with the appropriate other colors) in nature, or in certain colors of clothing, etc.

So I'm thinking of "limited palette" also in terms of color efficiency. I'm sure with all our different ways of seeing, we are trying to find the most efficient palette for our needs.

I do think a palette that is chosen has a lot to do with what your style is.
Jacob Collins work is of the brown school and deals mainly with form. His color is local and depends on the form for its value. Monet's palette is of the impressionist school and deals mainly with color and light; ie. form is rendered only as a consequence of the objects chroma vis-a-vis their relative value in a field of light.

Sargent chose, it seems, to have his brush in both worlds.

I come late to this discussion but after much trial and error over about 6 years, I keep coming back to some specific colors that seem to work the best for flesh. I have boxes of paint around here but keep returning to some old colors that seem cleaner and more life like.

One major change that I have taken recently is the discovery of Williamsburgs flake white. Since I have started using this I no longer am using medium. I am using it thick and rough. Think Rembrandt or Freud. I was using Old Holland cremnitz, but the Williamsburg is more so. I haven't tried Michael Hardings paint, but would like to.

It has recently occurred to me that I can use lots of oil with the darks, but not with the lights, Darks are thin, lights are built up.

I keep returning to an old tube of Doaks vermilion for my flesh. I have tried everything else . I keep Williamsburgs pyrelene crimson on my palette but often when I use it the painting gets too cold. Vermillion and ivory black make a cleaner crimson substitute. Also I eliminated raw sienna and replaced it with yellow ochre . Naples yellow genuine is good for lightening dark areas without getting cooler. I like Williamsburgs terra rosa for a brown instead of burnt umber.
In short at this time for portrait and figurative I guess my palette would be

Pyrelene crimson (maybe)
Genuine vermilion( the warm variety)
green ochre(dark cool ochre)
yellow ochre
naples yellow
raw umber
terra rosa(Italian earth brown)
viridian
ivory black
cerulean blue or cobalt turquoise
ultramarine (if I needed it)
flake white
flake/ titanium white(only for the brightest white highlights)


I have shifted away from using anything cold, away from crimson and blue. I try to use the vermilion and the ivory black instead of the crimson and blue as my coolest colors. Vermilion mixed with black for my deep shadows. It seems to make a cleaner brown.

In short I am using mostly vermilion, yellow ochre, ivory black, raw umber, terra rosa, and flake white.

Linda:

I strongly urge you to try the following flesh palette for it's simplicity, effectiveness, and ease of set up.

Lay out a string of grays starting with black, and add white in steps until you have seven to nine values.

Lay out WN Alizarin Crimson Perm., starting full strength and lighten with white to match the values of black in the row above.

Lay out your yellow string with straight burnt umber (Old Holland is best), and lighten with yellow ocher until a middle value, which is pure yellow ocher, and then lightend the remainder of the string with white to match the strings above.

With a little practice, you should be able to hit 99% of your flesh color needs with this palette.

FYI: You can get greens from the yO and grays; purples and violets from the alizarin and gray mixes. Obviously greens temper or neutralize red. Violets go nicely around the eyes, and a dull green underpainting serves the lower half of men's faces. Of course, most of the ivory black/white mixes will read as blue when used as is.

Lay out the strings horizontaly, but work vertically . . . that is, if working from the third lightest value, select reds, yellow or grays from the third vertical row. This will keep all of your values the same. Try it. You'lll catch on quickly.

Lemme know how it works.

I found Scott Christensen's pallette interesting. He uses the three primaries, plus white, plus several grays.

Some of his grays are bought as is. Others he mixes and puts into tubes himself. He has cool, warm, and "ochre" grays. He says that most of the colors you mix will be some variation of gray anyway. It can take a long time to mix them from pure colors, so why not start with grays and bend them with one or more primaries?

He says he can't tell the difference between the paintings he did with a full pallete and his more recent ones with his gray pallette.

He's a landscape painter. Not portrait.

Do I know you? Where can I see a sample of your work? I thank you for your advice but I'm happy with what I'm doing now. I know how to mix colors. I've been painting in mediums other than oil since 1964.
The colors that I have settled with are also the colors that Zorn settled with. I'm in good company with my choices and my methods.