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Old 02-10-2004, 09:16 AM   #11
Dianne Gardner
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I have about a third of a tube of pre-tested Grumbacher's Burnt Sienna PO23 if you want it.

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Old 04-08-2004, 12:49 AM   #12
Garth Herrick Garth Herrick is offline
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Old Burnt Sienna P023

Scott,

Hi, I'm relatively new to the forum, so I missed the last round of posts in January. I hope you have found some real burnt sienna, but in case you are still searching, here is some rare earth I just dug up:

I found four tube remnants of Grumbacher's P023, ranging in age from circa 1960 to 1977. The newest one dates from my first ever purchase of oils. The older ones belonged to the man who employed me to sculpt Leonardo da Vinci's Horse a while back.

You made me curious so I made a test chart to compare all my tubes of burnt sienna. There is a difference between W+N synthetic and Grumbacher P023. However, being a natural product, all four tubes of P023 are subtly different from each other as well. The newest one has a lighter body color, but can make a similar tint and glaze as the others. The modern W+N product is more yellow in hue, but I guess you know that.

The other tubes I compared, are: A forty+ year old tube from Permanant Pigments (very close to Grumbacher P023, but slightly redder), Old Holland (natural calcined sienna, but clearly a different pigment source), and Pebeo Fragonard, which I understand is no longer available, but is very much a different standard for burnt sienna, because it is made from burnt umber (go figure)!

With each swatch, I added some Blockx Mixte White (flake and zinc) to test the tint hues.

I didn't realize there were so many different standards for Burnt Sienna! Here are some pictures of test swatches. I hope this helps.
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Old 04-08-2004, 08:04 AM   #13
Scott Bartner Scott Bartner is offline
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Dear Garth:

I'm very grateful you took the time and energy to research the burnt sienna problem for me. For the last several years I had been struggling to refine my technique, trying to determine what mixture of paints, when applied to a monochrome underpainting, produced the most believable flesh tone--using my dwindling supply of W&N burnt sienna 103 as a base.

It never occurred to me that after the W&N was gone, other brands would be so vastly different. The W&N synthetic burnt sienna was a joke; it should be called "Great Pumpkin Orange." I tried versions from Blockx, Old Holland, Rembrandt, Talens, Van Gogh, Zecchi, old Grumbacher PO23 tubes (my father cajoled from his medical illustration students), Williamsburg, Sinopia pigment to name a few. Therefore I was rather skeptical of finding something comparable to the old W&N 103. You see it's not just the color, but the way it behaves when applied thinly. Then I discovered the Gamblin product was identical to the W&N 103 in every respect. I've since purchased a life time supply and had it smuggled here using my usual courier. Thanks though for your help.
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Old 04-08-2004, 08:23 AM   #14
Allan Rahbek Allan Rahbek is offline
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Hi Garth, sparring partner.

I notice that the shadows of the tubes seem bluish and the light pink / yellowish, which means that you have used a warm light. This will make the Burnt Sienna look more warm than out in the real life.
Just theory, no problem!

I used to paint watercolors for many years, which is only glazes. I favored the Siennas and especially from W&N, because they were so well ground and clean, no milk in that soup !

They do now make the Sienna in artificial way but with the natural ingredients. And I am suspicious enough to think that they mix the color to a certain standard of color, to be optimal in use.

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Old 04-08-2004, 11:07 AM   #15
David Kassan David Kassan is offline
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Burnt sienna

It ain't pretty and the cap is on there for good, but it's almost full and it's yours if you want it. I collect old paints because they are better. If anyone can find me Mummy Brown. let me know. It's really old from the late 19th century,



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Old 04-08-2004, 11:54 AM   #16
Garth Herrick Garth Herrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Rahbek
Hi Garth, sparring partner.

I notice that the shadows of the tubes seem bluish and the light pink / yellowish, which means that you have used a warm light. This will make the Burnt Sienna look more warm than out in the real life.
Just theory, no problem!

Allan
Allan,

You are quite right and very observant. My very fine professional flash decided to subordinate it output against the extremely glaring 500 watt halogen that was already illuminating the situation. However, I did a more careful Photoshop Levels white balance on the two pictures of the colot tests. They seem corrected to me.

Thanks!
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Old 04-08-2004, 12:26 PM   #17
Garth Herrick Garth Herrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Bartner
Dear Garth:

I'm very grateful you took the time and energy to research the burnt sienna problem for me. For the last several years I had been struggling to refine my technique, trying to determine what mixture of paints, when applied to a monochrome underpainting, produced the most believable flesh tone--using my dwindling supply of W&N burnt sienna 103 as a base.

It never occurred to me that after the W&N was gone, other brands would be so vastly different. The W&N synthetic burnt sienna was a joke; it should be called "Great Pumpkin Orange." I tried versions from Blockx, Old Holland, Rembrandt, Talens, Van Gogh, Zecchi, old Grumbacher PO23 tubes (my father cajoled from his medical illustration students), Williamsburg, Sinopia pigment to name a few. Therefore I was rather skeptical of finding something comparable to the old W&N 103. You see it's not just the color, but the way it behaves when applied thinly. Then I discovered the Gamblin product was identical to the W&N 103 in every respect. I've since purchased a life time supply and had it smuggled here using my usual courier. Thanks though for your help.
Oh, Scott,

You are most welcome. I have learned much. Perhaps this will lead in this forum, to more critical comparisons and discussions about the merits of various pigments and brands, and how they may be best employed. I have inherited about three hundred antique tubes, and only four of them were burnt sienna! Several forty-five year old W+N tubes are on my palette now, but I am assuming these colors are still the same today.

I am glad the Gamblin product matches your needs. I will put my old siennas to use.

Thanks!
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Old 04-08-2004, 12:30 PM   #18
Garth Herrick Garth Herrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kassan
It ain't pretty and the cap is on there for good, but its almost full and it's yours if you want it. I collect old paints cause they are better. If anyone can find me Mummy Brown. let me know. its really old from the late 19th century,



Dave,

If you ever come accross some Mummy Brown, give us a report! That should be as rare as a passenger pigeon.
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Old 08-13-2014, 03:58 PM   #19
Heidi Maiers Heidi Maiers is offline
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Windsor Newton paints

I know this post is old, but if still interested, I have loads of old Windsor newton paints I'm trying to sell. of 170 tubes, probably 1/3 are W/N. Check out my post in the items for sale section. All still very soft. If looking for particular colors, I'm sure I have it.
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Old 08-13-2014, 04:23 PM   #20
Heidi Maiers Heidi Maiers is offline
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Winsor Newton inventory

I just checked. Only have 36 tubes of W/N paints. All 40ml size of the following colors. Almost all nearly full and all are still soft.

Cadmium orange 2 tubes
Cadmium lemon 2 tubes
Cadmium yellow pale 2 tubes
Naples yellow
Yellow ochre 2 tubes
Cadmium red
Cadmium red light
Light red 2 tubes
Sap green 3 tubes
Burnt umber 3 tubes
Raw umber 2 tubes
Burnt sienna 2 tubes
Windsor emerald
Windsor green
Windsor blue
Cobalt blue
Antwerp blue
Prussian blue
Flesh tint
Permanent rose
Viridian
Ultramarine violet
Ivory black
Indigo
Paynes gray
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